🎙 How your podcast can bring you clients & make you money — with Chelsea Riffe

Amelia [00:00:02] [Music overlapping with introduction to the episode] Welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast for small business owners who want to leave social media without losing all their clients. I'm Amelia Hruby, writer, speaker, and founder of Softer Sounds podcast studio. On this show, I share stories, strategies, and experiments for growing your business with radical generosity and energetic sovereignty.

Amelia [00:00:22] Download your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig and join us as we do it all off the grid [music gets louder and then stops].

Amelia [00:00:37] Hello and welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast about leaving social media without losing all your clients. I'm Amelia Hruby. I am a writer, speaker, and the founder of Softer Sounds, a feminist podcast studio for entrepreneurs and creatives. I am also the host of this podcast and your guide and fellow explorer as we launch and grow thriving, feel-good businesses off of social media.

Amelia [00:01:04] It's hard to believe, but this is already our ninth episode of Off the Grid. Lucky number nine. In past episodes, I've talked about the myths about social media marketing for small businesses, my story of leaving Instagram and launching a business off of social media, how to plan creative marketing experiments to grow your audience, nurture your community, and sell your offerings or products. And a few episodes ago, we had our first guest on the show to talk about cultivating energetic sovereignty in our businesses. You can find all of those episodes on our feed or at softersounds.studio/offthegrid. Please tune in, leave us a review, and let us know how you're feeling. Got a place to leave voice messages with thoughts, feelings, questions, whatever you like to appear in future episodes of the show. So, head to the show notes, check out that voice message link, and then head back here for a wonderful episode.

Amelia [00:02:04] Because today for our ninth episode, I have a very special guest, Chelsea Riffe, joining me. And I'm going to tell you a little bit about her before she [chuckles] joins us on air. So, Chelsea is a mindset and podcast coach, a podcast host, an entrepreneur, and more. She is the host of an amazing podcast called In My Non-Expert Opinion, where you can hear about everything from wellness to money, travel, business, dating, and sex.

Amelia [00:02:34] You can also catch me on that podcast, talking about this podcast [giggles], and she's a fellow member of the North Node and the Holisticism Hub, which is where we met. Shout out to Holisticism. Today I've got Chelsea here to talk about her experience with podcasting, both as a podcaster and a podcast coach. The role that podcasting plays in her business.

Amelia [00:02:55] Big hint: podcasts are a great marketing and sales tool. And we're going to talk about why today, as well as her current relationship with social media. Many of you lovely listeners have asked me to bring on guests who are still on social media to share how they think about their relationship to social media platforms in their businesses and their lives. I hear you. You're a little tired of hearing me say, "I'm not on social [laughs]."

Amelia [00:03:21] Today's episode is for you if you've been feeling that way. We're going to talk to Chelsea about how she navigates being on Instagram and other social media platforms as a business owner and what that current relationship is feeling like. So, with that lengthy introduction...

Amelia [00:03:38] Hi, Chelsea, welcome to Off the Grid.

Chelsea [00:03:40] Hi. I'm so excited to be here. I already know this is going to be an incredible conversation, so thank you for having me.

Amelia [00:03:47] I'm so excited you're here. And I just want to say upfront that I love that we're both podcasters and we run podcast businesses and that we're collaborating on this. I feel like, you know, so often we're told you're supposed to be in competition with other people in your industry and I'm just not interested in that. I would much rather talk to other people who are doing what I'm doing and help us, like, promote each other. So, yay for that.

Chelsea [00:04:13] I literally was just— I was just writing out some solo episodes I wanted to do, and one of them was going to be, "Why I'm Not Motivated By Competition" and start looking at your competitors—

Amelia [00:04:23] Yes.

Chelsea [00:04:23] As collaborators. And I literally feel like this is an example of we can do so much more good when we combine—

Amelia [00:04:30] Yes!

Chelsea [00:04:30] Our powers versus trying to compete.

Amelia [00:04:32] Yes. So true. Like we can— I feel like it really serves us and it serves our potential clients, right? Like, not everybody is going to be a perfect fit to work with me. Some people are, some people aren't. And I want to have other amazing people for them to work with if I'm not the right option for somebody at any given moment. So—

Chelsea [00:04:50] Amen.

Amelia [00:04:50] Yeah. I'm so excited about that. So, in today's episode, as I already mentioned, we're going to talk about podcasting, we're going to talk about social media, and I was wondering if you could kind of introduce yourself by telling us your journey into podcasting, like how did you end up starting your own podcast and becoming a podcast coach?

Chelsea [00:05:12] Of course. So, I feel like I always have loved talking and I've loved being on air and interviewing. That's something I've always really, really enjoyed. And I remember being younger and I wanted to be an E! News reporter just on E! News, celebrity gossip like that's what I was going for.

Chelsea [00:05:29] So, I went to college and I got my grad degree in broadcast journalism and I was doing sports reporting. So, then I decided, “Oh, my gosh, I'm going to be on ESPN. I'm going to be the next Erin Andrews or Samantha Ponder.” And I was pretty gung-ho about that. I was like, I am going to be a sports reporter. And I did everything internships, jobs, part-time jobs, etc.. And then I realized how competitive, how little you get paid, how hard the work is. Like, I have friends that work in that industry that live off welfare because of how little they get paid.

Chelsea [00:06:03] So I was like— and you don't really have a big break unless you're in the industry for like ten years. So, I was like, "Do I really want to forgo, you know, all my twenties, family life, travel for this job that could end up just not leading anywhere?" And I kept hearing advice from people being like, "Get ready if you're gonna go in that industry, you're going to work long hours, you're not going to get paid, you need make so many connections, and just like develop the thickest skin ever."

Chelsea [00:06:30] So, all the advice I was given was just, like, basically, “Don't do this unless you want to even eat, breathe and sleep this industry.” So, I was like, "Well, this sucks," because I feel like that's what I spent all my time in college doing was trying to be a sports reporter or some type of reporter. So, after college, I had nothing to do. I worked at an Italian restaurant and I was just like, "What am I going to do? What's my next move?"

Chelsea [00:06:53] And I found this program called Digital Media and Storytelling. It was a master's degree at Loyola Chicago, and I was reading it and I was like, "Oh my god, this has everything you could ever want in terms of telling stories." And I was always told I was a great storyteller, so I was like, "This seems a little too divine. Let me look into this." And it ended up having how to tell stories through video, how to tell stories through audio, how to write stories, etc.. And that whole program felt like— like nothing to me. Like it was the most fun thing. It felt like play and I knew I had hit some type of gold there where I was like I just did a master's that took up a lot of time and I was working full-time and I didn't hate it at all. Like, I absolutely love the work.

Amelia [00:07:36] Uhhuh.

Chelsea [00:07:36] So, I get out of school and I start working for a content and influencer marketing company where we were selling software that housed influencers.

Amelia [00:07:46] Mmm.

Chelsea [00:07:46] And I was so inspired by all these content creators and my previous degrees, I was like, "I'm going to try blogging." Did one post, that did not work out at all [Amelia chuckles heartily]. Hated how long it took, hated pictures, hated the SEO—

Amelia [00:07:58] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:07:58] Hated hyperlinking. I hated everything about it. Then I was like, "I'm— oh, Instagram's new. I'm going to start a beauty Instagram." And I did maybe three posts and this was way before Instagram and beauty were like a thing that you could actually monetize.

Amelia [00:08:13] Mmm.

Chelsea [00:08:13] And my friends were even like, “I don't understand what this is [Amelia laughs heartily].” Like, "You're posting pictures of makeup?" And I'm like— if I would have just stuck with it, I would be, like, laughing all the way to the bank right now at them.

Amelia [00:08:23] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:08:23] But, I ended up realizing, too, it was just another thing where photos and editing and all these things were involved—

Amelia [00:08:28] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:08:28] And it still just didn't click. And then I heard my first podcast, which was Serial—

Amelia [00:08:34] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:08:34] I feel like that was everyone's gateway—

Amelia [00:08:34] Definitely.

Chelsea [00:08:35] Podcast into podcasting. I was like, "Whoa, something is different here. They're producing this almost movie-like quality of audio and storytelling." And I couldn't get enough and I was bingeing the episodes and then I found out other podcasts and I was like, "Maybe this is it."

Chelsea [00:08:53] So, I sat on the idea for a very, very long time, and it wasn't until after a breakup where I needed a creative outlet where I was like, "I'm going to give podcasting a shot." And it's the thing that stuck. Now I've been doing it since 2017. I do weekly episodes. The month of March I'm doing two episodes a week and it does not feel like work. I produce everything out-of-pocket. I pay people, like, this is all just a passion project—

Amelia [00:09:19] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:09:19] At this point. I mean, it ended up turning into my career, which we'll get into, but I just loved it and it ended up clicking so well that I was like, "This is the medium I was meant to be on." And that's why I got into it.

Amelia [00:09:28] Yeah. I—yes— I would love to pause there before we talk about how it became your career because I just felt so much synchronicity [giggles] in what you were saying. One, because everything people told you about sports reporting is exactly what they told me about academia, like before I went to get a Ph.D. and as I was working on it, everyone's like, "You're going to spend your entire twenties on this. You're not going to make any money. At the end, you might not even get a job, you need to devote your whole life to it [laughs]." Like, it's the same narrative. It was kind of uncanny—

Amelia [00:09:55] It's crazy.

Chelsea [00:09:56] And then I did not realize that you did your master's at Loyola because I did my Ph.D. at DePaul, and I lived in Edgewater and like—

Chelsea [00:10:03] Oh my gosh!

Amelia [00:10:04] Spent a lot of time around Loyola [laughs].

Chelsea [00:10:06] Oh, yeah, I lived everywhere. I lived in Boystown, Lincoln Park, Streeterville. I was there for six years. It's, like, one of my favorite cities.

Amelia [00:10:13] Yeah. I didn't realize we had that in common. I was there for almost eight and just, like, loved it and spent— I, like, worked at a restaurant in Lincoln Park and like, I'm sure they're over— we have overlapping worlds we didn't even know about yet, but I just obviously resonate so much with so many pieces of your story. And I loved what you emphasized there about how you followed what felt good and felt natural and felt easy to you, like you said, didn't even feel like work or like doing anything because it was just your talents and you were able to follow that instead of pursuing this like grind in another industry that you thought you should be entering. And that's such a beautiful lesson, and I'm glad it's led you here. So, tell us about how podcasting became your career.

Chelsea [00:10:57] Honestly, by accident [Amelia and Chelsea chuckle together]. Basically, what happened in my content and influencer marketing job was I was a salesperson. So, part of my job was keeping up with all the algorithms, all— we literally had to know about every single platform, all the ways they worked, paid advertising, etc.. And then on the flip side, we also had to keep up on trends and what influencers were coming out with what and innovations. And I just remember constantly reviewing this stuff, being like, I have enough knowledge to do this myself—

Amelia [00:11:27] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:11:27] To be a content creator myself.

Amelia [00:11:29] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:11:30] So I was like, "You know what? Maybe I need to quit this and start my own thing." I didn't even know what that was. I was like, "Maybe I'll go work for a podcast network. Maybe I'll go work as a content creator, like creating branded podcasts for companies." I had no idea, but I was like, "You know what? I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to move abroad and I'm going to figure it out." I was very like, eat, pray, love [Amelia laughs], mindset of, "Let's just see where this takes us." And without really having a plan, I ended up in Australia doing nothing of the sorts. I ended up working in hospitality—

Amelia [00:12:01] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:12:01] Trying to make ends meet, just really like— Australia ended up turning into this year of travel and fun. Fast forward, the pandemic hits in Australia—

Amelia [00:12:10] Mm.

Chelsea [00:12:10] When I'm starting a new hospitality job. And, by the way, throughout this whole period of working in hospitality, I was trying different things. Like I tried to launch a course with my friend, I was trying to do private yoga teaching, like, I was just doing all this random stuff to try to make my own income with my skillset.

Chelsea [00:12:28] Podcasting at this point to me was still a hobby. I was updating people on my Australia travels. It was very much just like a fun thing to keep people updated—

Amelia [00:12:36] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:12:36] In my life. So, then the pandemic hits. The restaurant I was supposed to work at was like, "We're shut down until further notice. We literally have nothing for you to do." Flights were $10,000 home from Australia, didn't have $10,000 laying around to just book a flight home and, honestly, this is when we all thought the pandemic was going to be like two weeks.

Amelia [00:12:57] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:12:57] So I was like, "Oh, I'll just ride this out for two weeks." And the restaurant owner was like, "You can come nanny for us while we're waiting for the restaurant to open back up because we're going to do to-go orders." I was like, "Great. That's all I can literally do." And there was another nanny there. And so we kept switching days and we had all this time off. And something just hit me honestly, like, during a meditation outside where I was like, "This is go time."

Amelia [00:13:21] Mmm.

Chelsea [00:13:21] Like, this is the time that you could be working on your own business. This is the time to get serious, to learn as much as you can, and really give your all because you have nothing else to do. You don't have bills. You can't go work anywhere. You have all the free time in the world. So, I realized this is where I want to try and find like what I can do to help people. But, I started out teaching about mindset and manifestation.

Amelia [00:13:44] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:13:44] So that was my career for, like, eight months, and it went really well. And then something just started to feel off and I was like— this is a whole different conversation on manifestation—

Amelia [00:13:55] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:13:55] And mindset— but I was like, "This is not really, like, feeling like my true calling."

Amelia [00:14:00] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:14:00] And I remember before that, it just came to me, I forgot this whole part of the story. My friend was like, "You should just offer podcast services to people to make a side hustle, side job." So, I was actually editing podcasts, making audiograms, helping people upload, etc. on the side, but it was never something that I was like, "Oh, this is going to be—"

Amelia [00:14:18] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:14:18] "A full-time thing." So fast forward to when the pandemic hits, I do this whole mindset manifestation thing for a few months. I'm like, “I actually really think I could help people with podcasting.” So, I talked to my business coach and I was like, "I really just want to put a feeler out there, see what happens." And she's like, "Yeah, put a package out there, see what happens." And I remember posting it on my story and that day I had four people sign up for the package.

Amelia [00:14:41] Cool.

Chelsea [00:14:42] I was like, "Okay, something—"

Amelia [00:14:44] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:14:44] "Is working here. This makes sense." And then it all started clicking again. Like, this is my background. I've had a podcast, I know what I'm doing, and from there I've slowly really started to put all my eggs in the podcast coaching basket. So, now that's what I do. I help people launch podcasts and grow and monetize them.

Amelia [00:15:01] Yeah, ahh, I love that whole story. I feel like it really is a beautiful example of like a spiralic sort of career journey of you just keep spiraling back to storytelling and you keep spiraling back to—

Chelsea [00:15:15] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:15:15] This supporting people and, like, telling your own story and supporting other people's stories. And I think that that's so—

Chelsea [00:15:20] Yes.

Amelia [00:15:20] That's the power of podcasting. So—

Chelsea [00:15:25] I know.

Amelia [00:15:25] Let's talk a little bit about how powerful podcasting is. Like, what role does your podcast play in your business ecosystem at this point?

Chelsea [00:15:35] So, at this point, it is definitely a mix of a marketing tool and a creative outlet.

Amelia [00:15:41] Mm.

Chelsea [00:15:41] And I will tell you because my podcast was such a hobby before, it was never meant to be an extension of my business.

Amelia [00:15:47] Mm. Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:15:47] It was just a creative outlet. And I noticed that it could be pretty much the main driver of all my revenue when I launched my first course and I remember being like, "I'll announce it on the podcast, just quickly throw it out there. But I'm really going to market this on my Facebook group, on my Instagram, going live, etc.." And I remember quickly mentioning the course and then all of a sudden, all these sign-ups came in and I was like, "What's going on? Like, where are these people coming from?" [Amelia chuckles] And it would be people messaging me on Instagram saying, "I can't believe you're offering a course. I've listened to your podcast for years. I'm so excited—"

Amelia [00:16:21] Mhm.

Chelsea [00:16:21] "Like, this is really cool. I want to be part of the course." And then when I looked at who signed up, it was still, to this day, one of my biggest course launches. I had 20 sign-ups, and I would say 99% of them came from my podcast—

Amelia [00:16:32] Wow.

Chelsea [00:16:32] And that's when it clicked. This is not an accident. There is—

Amelia [00:16:36] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:16:37] Something here that everyone that is converting and signing up listens to my podcast. So, now I've become more strategic about episodes and planning, etc. But I never wanted it to be an extension of my business. So, I don't look at it as, you know, every single week, how are we going to convert or do this or do that? It's still very much a storytelling component for me, and that's why I don't really— like I talk about dating and travel and sex. Those aren't things I teach about in my podcast coaching, obviously—

Amelia [00:17:04] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:17:04] But I think it helps because it gives my business a personality. You know—

Amelia [00:17:08] Mm.

Chelsea [00:17:09] If you want to know what I'm like and what it's like to work with me, go listen to my podcast. And I think that's the role it plays. It personifies my business and its voice.

Amelia [00:17:16] Yeah, definitely. I love that point because when I work with clients at Softer Sounds we kind of work around a couple of different goals for podcasts, and one of them is establishing your expertise, but a big piece of that is just, like, building trust and cultivating a personality and sharing your personality is a big way to build trust because people feel like they know you. They're not going to be, like, thrown off or surprised or caught off guard by who you are when they finally end up on a call with you. Because I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but I have definitely like fangirled over people's websites and then landed on a one-on-one call or in a workshop and been like, "Whoa, that's not what I expected [laughs and Chelsea joins in]." Or like, "Oh, that was— that felt like a bait and switch. I do not know what's happening [laughs]."

Chelsea [00:18:03] 100%.

Amelia [00:18:04] Podcasts are just such a good way to share ourselves with our audience, whether that be like through these sorts of like personal conversations that you're sharing, or even if you do have a podcast that's more like business-oriented or is more about like promoting your work or your offerings. You're still sharing yourself and your voice and the way you think about things like the way you structure an episode or how you talk through something, like, conveys so much more than I think just a static webpage or even Instagram post ever really can.

Chelsea [00:18:32] Well, I also recently read a stat too that it was like the most basically impactful part of video is hearing the person's voice. It's the audio—

Amelia [00:18:42] Mmm.

Chelsea [00:18:42] Of the video. Like, think about it. If you watch a video without their voice, it wouldn't even really make sense. So, when you think about their voice, it really activates you. That's how we communicate. And I think that's something, honestly, I would love to do more research on is like how voices really ignite human connection. And to your point, not only do you hear my personality when you hear so much of me all the time if you tune in week after week after week—

Amelia [00:19:07] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:19:07] You're pretty much— we don't have to do the whole sales call back and forth. Let's figure it out. Which I've noticed too, from switching to a business standpoint, it's completely eliminated the need for sales calls or really drawn out—

Amelia [00:19:19] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:19:19] Long processes and discovery calls because they're like, "I've listened to ten of your episodes, I'm ready to work with you." And I think that's really an—

Amelia [00:19:26] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:19:26] Underrated component of the podcast as well as maybe you don't need to be doing sales calls all week. You could start a podcast.

Amelia [00:19:32] Yeah, definitely. I think podcasts, like, really beautifully, almost, like, implicitly kind of pitch you like a sales call would. I've noticed that for myself, my, like, discovery or sales calls now, they're not about people getting to know me, they're just about me getting to know them.

Chelsea [00:19:48] Yes.

Amelia [00:19:49] Because by the time people land on a call, they've heard my podcast, they've probably read some of my emails, they, like, know who I am. So, I get to spend all that time getting to know them, understanding their needs, and figuring out if it's actually a good fit, which is so much more fun for me than, like, the sales calls where I have to get on and like talk about myself—

Chelsea [00:20:06] Right.

Amelia [00:20:06] And tell them like— I don't enjoy that as much. I'd much rather do all of that [chuckles] on a podcast or elsewhere and then meet with people to get to know them. Like that's— that's what I love. And that's part of what I love about podcasting and having these conversations is getting to know people.

Chelsea [00:20:22] Exactly. And it's interesting, too, because there's some episodes I've done where I've been really vulnerable and open, where I'm like, "Oh my god—"

Amelia [00:20:30] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:20:30] "This is going to discredit my expertise as a business person or as an entrepreneur."

Amelia [00:20:35] Mm.

Chelsea [00:20:35] I remember I did one about how I'm healing my relationship to money, and I was pretty open about how I manage my money and what I thought I was doing wrong. And then I posted it. I'm like, "Why would you post that? No one's going to take you seriously now. Like, you just basically made yourself not look like an expert." Funny enough, that was the episode that prompted all these DMs and leads because they said, "Wow, I relate to that. I relate to you. No one's really ever talked about it that way." So, it brought this connection even closer than I imagined. But it's interesting because you would think, why would you share something that looks like you're not an expert when in reality it's like that's what people are seeking is that vulnerability and that intimacy.

Amelia [00:21:10] Yeah, I mean, and your podcast is called In My Non-Expert Opinion [Chelsesa laughs], so it's set up to be a space where you don't have to be the expert. And I love that you're pointing to that because I do think it's— podcasts are about sharing, and that doesn't have to be from a place of I know more than you do so I'm telling you because you know less than I do.

Chelsea [00:21:30] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:21:30] Like, I am not really interested in making these like hierarchical podcasts. I'm interested in making more, like, horizontal, open, like, sharing as peers podcasts.

Chelsea [00:21:40] Yes.

Amelia [00:21:40] And I was also thinking with what you just said, like, I think one of the powers of Instagram a few years ago was that people were getting really vulnerable and sharing things. And I really connected with a lot of influencers and a lot of people connected with me as an influencer because of things they shared and how, like, real and powerful it felt. And then over the past two or three years, I would say that has shifted. And now it just feels to me like Instagram is full of this, like, faux vulnerability. Like how many, like, social media workshops start with like— tell you to start all your posts with like, "Guys, I have to confess a secret," or like, "This is the most vulnerable thing I've ever shared." Like, that's turned into a strategy [chuckles].

Chelsea [00:22:21] Right.

Amelia [00:22:21] So it's not actually vulnerability to me at that point. Like, if it's strategic in that way, you're really crafting that vulnerability to be, like, perfect. And I think vulnerability is messy and open and raw and beautiful in its own way. I don't think it's a marketing strategy or I don't— it is, but I don't want it to be [chuckles and Chelsea joins in]. So, I say that because I think there is still something on podcasts, the way that it all comes through your voice.

Chelsea [00:22:48] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:22:48] And this is something I say a lot. And I said on the last episode of Off the Grid, which is like podcasting gives us an opportunity to embody the things that we're saying and to bring our body to our marketing, to our sales, to our values. Because the voice is like— like casting your body out there into the world[chuckles]—

Chelsea [00:23:09] Yes.

Amelia [00:23:09] In a way that just writing never does for me. I love writing. I'm a big fan. I'm not trying to like denigrate it, but there's something about speaking that really does to me— like it's an embodiment practice. And when people are vulnerable on podcasts, I can immediately hear, like, oh, we've shifted into, like, vulnerable sharing. And I like get— you can't really get closer to your headphones, but I like, I pay attention. I'm like, "Okay, wait, they're sharing something vulnerable. Gotta listen. This is important." Like, my body picks up those cues too because they're coming from that person's body. And I just— I haven't really explained this super well, so it's feeling a little messy and vulnerable. But I think there is something in podcasts that lend themselves to that, to trusting when people share real things.

Chelsea [00:23:55] Oh, 100% agree. It's the fact that you have the space to add more nuance and context to whatever you're writing about or whatever you're thinking about.

Amelia [00:24:04] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:24:04] Where when you're writing, you have to think about punctuation and grammar and wait, let me backspace. And this doesn't make sense and let me make this more cohesive—

Amelia [00:24:12] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:24:12] Podcasts, it's like stream of consciousness for however long you want, and like you said, it is a little bit messy. Sometimes there are no structures and those are the best ones—

Amelia [00:24:19] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:24:20] Because that's what people are thinking, I think, is there's— there's—

Amelia [00:24:22] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:24:23] This universal misunderstanding that what we're thinking or going through, we must be the only ones or like one of few, when in reality, it's like a universal truth. Everyone's going through that thing. Where podcasting, you're like, oh, I can actually open up about it without character count, without video limits, without censorship. I literally can have the floor to talk about whatever I want, however long I want, and whatever style I want, which you don't really get to do that on social.

Amelia [00:24:49] Yeah, there is a kind of really nice built-in boundary with podcasting like, on social as soon as you post it, I feel like it is there to be like devoured by the masses and you can get troll— like trolls and shitty comments and everyone's going to have an opinion. And like sometimes those are beautiful supportive opinions and sometimes they're not. But with podcasting, like, you get to share and you don't have that same like immediacy of the feedback. Like people might leave you a voice message or send you an email, but all of the responses I've ever gotten from podcast episodes have been so much more just like thoughtful and generous, even the critical ones than the responses I generally would get on social media.

Chelsea [00:25:28] And—

Amelia [00:25:29] So—

Chelsea [00:25:29] And delayed like it's like delayed gratification versus social media, it's the instant dopamine hit, like you just said, I'm posting and now I'm going to go look at who commented, who liked, who shared. Where podcasting, I've never put it out and been like [gasp], okay, let's see what notifications are going to pop up because it doesn't [Amelia chuckles] really work that way. That's not how this space was built.

Amelia [00:25:50] No. Yeah, and that is really, like, the lesson that I was getting on the last episode. Like, podcasting is an opportunity to slow down in our businesses and our lives. And I think, you know, when I started podcasting, that's not why I was doing it. But now as I'm running this podcast and my business, I'm like, "Oh, this is actually a really beautiful opportunity for me to learn how to slow down, for me to unlearn that instant gratification, for me to unlearn my, like, need for immediate validation that social media has given me."

Chelsea [00:26:21] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:26:22] Because through podcasting, I'm really like just slowing myself down. And when I do that in my podcast, I do it in other parts of my business too. Like, I'm really noticing this beautiful mutual reciprocity with that slowness. It's so great. I love podcasting [laughs].

Chelsea [00:26:35] I know. I'm like— I literally think everyone should start a podcast [laughs]. I'm like, I could shout it—

Amelia [00:26:39] Yes.

Chelsea [00:26:39] From the rooftops.

Amelia [00:26:41] [Laughs] Yeah, I love it. I know some people do not like to just— I think everyone who's a verbal processor should start a podcast [chuckles]—

Chelsea [00:26:47] Yes. Exactly.

Amelia [00:26:49] That's my disclaimer. If you like to talk, start a podcast. It'll be great.

Chelsea [00:26:52] Yes. Uh-huh. I always say— I'm like, these podcasts sometimes are just therapy for me. It's like, there is no strategy, no structure. It's like, I just need to verbally processes this, let me turn on the mic, share it, and I'm sure someone will resonate. And if you do great, if not, great.

Amelia [00:27:06] Yeah. If not, like, listen to a different episode.

Chelsea [00:27:07] Right.

Amelia [00:27:07] It's fine. Not everything has to be for everyone.

Chelsea [00:27:10] Exactly. 100%.

Amelia [00:27:12] So, I'd love to— we kind've been talking a lot about social media already, but I'd like to just more directly ask you, like, what is your current relationship with social media, both like in your personal life and in your business? Like what platforms do you use? How are they feeling? What's happening there?

Chelsea [00:27:27] So, the main platform I use still is Instagram. I have a TikTok. I post once a month. I don't— I don't know why. I need to either, like, delete it or just not get— even post on it. But yeah, I would say the main one is Instagram and I would say about a year ago my relationship to it changed because I also noticed what you called the faux vulnerability, that's what I was calling it too.

Amelia [00:27:50] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:27:50] It's like this fake vulnerability where people started almost finding moments in their day that were difficult and then putting them out there and wrapping them up with this inspirational bow. So, then it almost felt like, wow, if I don't have the inspirational bow to wrap up my experience, something's wrong with me. And it started to turn me off—

Amelia [00:28:07] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:28:07] From social media. Where I was like, "Wow, someone's really opening up. Like, this is deep, this is relatable." And then it would be like, "But don't worry, I turned things around, and now I'm going to teach you inside my master class coming out next week." And I was like, "Oh, my god."

Amelia [00:28:21] Every. Single. Time.

Chelsea [00:28:25] I was like, "Noooo."

Amelia [00:28:25] Like— it's always like list— like my— my parent died and it was horrible. And like, I experienced all these awful things and I hated myself and everyone else. And then now you can purchase, a one-on-one group coaching session [laughs] where I help you with— [deep sigh] not— I know I sound like I'm just hating on that strategy, but it is— it's really hard. I will back up my critique by saying it is really hard to go on a big emotional journey with someone and then it's that bait and switch again.

Chelsea [00:28:51] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:28:51] Of like— I'm like giving you all of my empathy, all of my feelings, sitting with this, and then the conclusion is just I should buy something from you?

Chelsea [00:28:59] Right.

Amelia [00:29:00] Like, why? Why?

Chelsea [00:29:00] Yeah.

Amelia [00:29:01] Okay. Sorry, I interrupted you.

Chelsea [00:29:02] Oh, no, I know—

Amelia [00:29:04] Ugh, it's a pet peeve of mine.

Chelsea [00:29:04] Like it really became such a pet peeve that— to the point where I had to mute or unfollow coaches and mentors, even that I was actively in their memberships or programs because I was like, "This just—"

Amelia [00:29:15] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:29:15] All feels like a show. It's a show."

Chelsea [00:29:17] And then I noticed, too—

Amelia [00:29:19] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:29:19] There was no space to express more parts of you, and there was actually an old client of mine that wrote an article and I'll shout her out. Her name's Daphne. She wrote this article on Medium called, "The Loneliest Place on Earth," and she's talking about Instagram where she made this point that it was so well articulated that when we put our bios up, we constantly think now every piece of content I post has to be in line with that bio. If I'm a mindset and podcast coach—

Amelia [00:29:42] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:29:42] Everything has to be about podcasting, mindset, tips, tricks, hacks, inspirational quotes, whatever. Instead of like, you know what I did this weekend? Got a little too tipsy and danced on the dance floor at happy hour. You know what else I did—

Amelia [00:29:57] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:29:57] Is went to a dance class. You know what else I did is started a pottery class. Like there was no room to, like, leave what you wrote in your bio.

Amelia [00:30:04] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:30:04] And that's when I started to feel really limited of— I am— actually, you know, what's interesting is my ex pointed this out to me. He goes, "I feel like who you are or you're trying to be on your Instagram is not who I know you as." And I was like—

Amelia [00:30:17] Mm.

Chelsea [00:30:17] "That's a big wake-up call that I'm not being truly who I am." He's like, "You're goofier, you're funnier. You ramble more and you're trying to be this like personal, professional, polished person—"

Amelia [00:30:26] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:30:27] "On Instagram." And so, I noticed this— that really struck a nerve with me because I was like, "He's right." And then it became even more apparent when I went on a vacation this past Christmas with my family, we were going to France and Germany and I remember I was starting to shop, not because I wanted like cute outfits just to be cute in my outfits. It was like, I'm buying these outfits—

Amelia [00:30:48] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:30:49] For Instagram photos. I'm thinking of [Amelia chuckles]— I was literally looking up cute cafes—

Amelia [00:30:53] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:30:53] And thinking, "Okay, I can picture myself in the coat with the coffee cup, looking back at the camera," and it really hit me that I'm like, "You're planning out Instagram content instead of thinking about the immersion and the experience of the meals, of the language, of the culture, who you're going to meet." All I could think about was the tiny screen and what I would look like in that screen, and that's when I was like—

Amelia [00:31:17] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:31:17] "This is a problem now. This isn't even just a disconnect."

Amelia [00:31:19] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:31:19] Like, "This is a problem that this is the way your mind is thinking." So, I was like, "I'm going to do an experiment, delete it for ten days." That's how long the trip was. And I did check it on my laptop in case anyone DM'd me about working together. But I was very adamant about not looking at it throughout the day. And interestingly enough, like nothing happened with my business, I didn't file for bankruptcy [Amelia chuckles]. I didn't have to, like, shut things down. And it proved to me like, wow, I can take a break for ten days and nothing will happen. And so, after that, I started to reframe my relationship. I will say I came back with a very strong desire to, like, delete it all. And I was like, "I'm deactivating it, I'm shutting it down. Bye." I was pretty much going to do what you would recommend not to do. I was going to basically ghost everybody [Amelia laughs heartily]. And be like, "Bye. I'm not on Instagram anymore."

Amelia [00:32:08] Don't recommend.

Chelsea [00:32:09] Yeah. And I talked to my coach, too, and she's like, "Let's, like, slow down a second, let's like really plan this out [Amelia laughs]." And so, I was like, you know what? It doesn't feel right to just completely delete it yet, but I'm going to reframe—

Amelia [00:32:19] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:32:19] My relationship to it. And I will say—Michelle Pellizzon, who's the founder of Holisticism, made this concept click for me, where she said, "You know, the life span of Instagram content is, what, 24 hours, 48, maybe a few days. The life span of an Instagram story is literally 24 hours. The life span of a podcast is like months, if not years." Like there's—

Amelia [00:32:41] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:32:41] People that listen to my podcast from 2019 episodes and that hit me of like, wow, I could be putting way more effort into creating all the content for the podcast and then using Instagram as a secondary or third priority platform to repurpose. So that is now—

Amelia [00:32:57] Mmm.

Chelsea [00:32:57] How I use it, where instead of thinking of it as these two different entities like podcasting and its whole own ballpark and then Instagram, the other one, it's no— anything I talk about in my podcast or emails, I'll just splice it up into Instagram content. But I don't wake up now thinking, what do I have to post on Instagram? What reel do I have to make? What stories do I have to post? Because that's the place I was about six months ago and it was exhausting. So yeah, now Instagram—

Amelia [00:33:22] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:33:22] Is like third priority and I basically use it as a repurposing platform.

Amelia [00:33:26] Yeah, I love that. I feel like that's such gold advice, like this little nugget of gold in there, this idea or strategy that Instagram is not primary, like, you can still use Instagram in your business as a promotional platform, but it is promoting these pieces of content that live in places that have longevity, like your podcast or your blog, or then, you know, there's a secondary which is email, which is also promoting things. And emails don't have like the longest shelf-life either, right? Like they land in an inbox, people read them or they don't, and they normally file them away and don't look at them as it's like the best email ever [giggles]. But like, I can't hold myself to that standard for every email I write.

Chelsea [00:34:08] Right.

Amelia [00:34:08] So, you know, there's, like, email that you send and then Instagram posts and I talk to a lot of small business owners who like making that shift is key for them. And this goes back to the very first episode of Off the Grid. Instagram does a really good job at convincing us it should be the primary marketing channel for our business, but that's, I'm going to be real, a total waste of your time—

Chelsea [00:34:27] Yes.

Amelia [00:34:28] As a business owner. Like a total waste of your time.

Chelsea [00:34:30] I will cosign that idea, I think [Amelia giggles] what helped me understand this, too. And we talked about this on my podcast was doing inventory of where my clients were coming from because like you said—

Amelia [00:34:41] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:34:41] I was definitely buying the idea like Instagram is my main channel, that's how clients find me, that's how I'm the most active. But then when I looked at well how— where have all my one-on-one clients come from? Where do people that sign up for my courses come from? All of them have come from listening to me on another podcast or listening to my podcast, or maybe they're on my email list. It has never been, "Wow, I loved your reel and I signed up for your course." It's always been like, "I've listened to your podcast and I signed up with you all." So, when I did that inventory, I realized, why am I waking up every day spending hours on Canva, hours thinking of reel ideas, finding the soundtrack, shooting video, when I could be spending hours editing my podcasts, finding amazing guests, incredible conversations—

Amelia [00:35:22] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:35:22] Promoting it, pitching myself. And what's interesting is now that I've put more eggs in that basket, I'm starting to see the return of, oh, my gosh, the time I was spending on Instagram. I've shifted that to podcasting and guest podcasting, and it has been—

Amelia [00:35:38] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:35:38] Crazy the results. I'm like, to your point, it sounds harsh, but like it really is [chuckles] a waste of your time to be putting all your eggs in the Instagram basket. There's a lot better ways to not only convert but connect with people. Like, I just feel like the connection on Instagram too is definitely a bit parasocial where it's like, "Look at me, I'm the inspiration, I'm the hero, I'm this, I'm that." And it— that's kind of the culture that was built on Instagram is everyone's their own PR agent and the star of their own movie. So, all the content is very—

Amelia [00:36:07] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:36:07] Me, me, me. Where I feel like podcasting is let me tell you stories and also elevate other people's stories. I don't feel like that happens often on Instagram.

Amelia [00:36:15] I see people try to do it and frankly it doesn't get a lot of engagement. Like, you know, you see people do like the client features or, you know, posting like one of their heroes. And I wish I could say those posts, I saw them doing great, but in most instances, I don't see them doing that well. Not that I'm on very much anymore, but [laughs] I tried those sorts of strategies when I was on Instagram and they weren't very high performing there because Instagram, like, is set up, as you said, to be the space where we are broadcasting our lives, where we, like, are distilling ourselves into these, like, bios and then promoting those bios as avatars of ourselves on the internet. And that's, like, just starts to feel bad—

Chelsea [00:36:55] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:36:55] Like, as you said, like, it just doesn't feel good and you feel like you're not being yourself or like you can't share anything except the work that you do. And that's how we get in these like really bad cy— like bad cycles. And that's why our businesses start to feel bad too, because we are just limiting ourselves into them or equating ourselves with them. And we need space within and outside of our businesses to be multifaceted and to be—

Chelsea [00:37:22] Yes.

Amelia [00:37:22] Expansive. So I think for folks tuning in, what would you say, Chelsea, to folks who are tuning in, since I'm the one who's like, I'm off Instagram, I don't do social media [Chelsea and Amelia laugh together], and you get to be the voice of a person who is still on social media and using it for your business. Like, what would you want to say like directly to people who are in your position? What is the best use of Instagram for your business in this day and age when it's not your primary marketing channel anymore?

Chelsea [00:37:46] I would honestly say treat your DMs as a second email inbox or a place to connect with people because that's what I realized why I thought Instagram was my main channel and what was converting is because that's where I talk to people the most. But when I looked at who was actually buying, it wasn't the people that I was talking to that much in the DMs, it was just a place to have conversation, so maybe just treat the Instagram DM inbox like your second email inbox or almost like a bulletin board, your in-feed stuff promoting what's coming up. You can promote your projects, promote your clients, etc., but like I said earlier, not treating it as, "I'm going to wake up and put all my eggs in the Instagram basket." More of, "Let me take my podcasts or my emails and repurpose them." And I think a good example is like out of even this conversation alone, you could cut up two videos and make those into reels. You could make— you could find a quote and turn that into an Instagram post. You could find— you can make a table or a chart and do an Instagram carousel. There's so many ways— I feel like— if you have one episode, you can make ten pieces of content out of that for Instagram. And that's easier, in my opinion, than, again, waking up being like, okay, I got to strategize for Instagram, what's going on today? And I think to— to add to that is with Instagram, it's never going to feel like enough. You're going to go viral. And then what? You're going to have to do it again and again and just get bigger and bigger. It feels like a never-ending mountain that you have to climb. And I think for me—

Amelia [00:39:12] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:39:12] That's when I realized it doesn't even matter if I get one million followers, I'm going to want two million. It doesn't matter if my video goes viral, I'm going to have to create more viral videos. And that realization was when I said, we're going to have to stop prioritizing Instagram. Start prioritizing the podcast. And that's what I would recommend to listeners is reframe your relationship and don't treat it as the priority.

Amelia [00:39:32] Yeah. There are so many gems in there that I just want to, like, repeat that you said so people catch them. The final thing you said, like, reprioritize your relationship to Instagram, stop treating it as your primary marketing channel, use your DMs creatively and effectively to communicate with current and potential clients, and get really clear on what is enough for you in your business.

Amelia [00:39:59] Like, don't let Instagram take you on this ride. Don't let any social media platform or any business guru [chuckles], like, don't let them take you on this ride that there is always more— that you have to be striving for more.

Amelia [00:40:10] Like there's this important underlying piece here of knowing what feels like enough for you or what is enough in your business and working toward that. And then once you get to that, like sitting in it, letting it be expansive feeling into it, and then just figuring out what the next evolution is. Because once you hit your ideal follower count, the next evolution might be launching a podcast, might be something totally different, it might not be more followers. Like that doesn't have to always be the answer.

Amelia [00:40:39] So, I think that was just something really like— a really nice gem in what you said, that point that, like, Instagram and social media is always making us want more. That is the model of virality—

Chelsea [00:40:49] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:40:49] That's the whole thing [chuckles]. And we can push back against that and decide what is enough and what we actually need to feel supported in our businesses and what we talked about on your podcast. You know what aligning your business with your values and your talents so that you really do know like this is the type of business I want to build. And as I build it, it feels good. And when it's, like, when I arrive at these goals, I am able to enjoy and celebrate them, not just denigrate myself or, like, [laughs] hate on myself for not being at the next step.

Amelia [00:41:23] I'm going to shout out an Instagram post [Chelsea laughs]. This is a first, actually a second on this podcast because a client sent it to me [laughs], one of my favorite clients who will be on in a couple episodes, her name's Janine Mulone of Feel Good Retail and she sent me this Instagram post that she made that's a succession meme. And it says, "When you have your biggest sales day ever and before you can even celebrate, that little voice says, 'Now, double it. Devil emoji."

Chelsea [00:41:46] Oh, my god [Amelia laughs heartily], 100%. It's never enough.

Amelia [00:41:52] I'll link it in the show notes. Yeah, that— that's like— it's that never enough-ness. And this podcast is about leaving social media, but secretly it's about [laughs] figuring out what is enough in your business and your life. And I think that's the key to experiencing real embodied abundance for all of us.

Chelsea [00:42:08] Yes.

Amelia [00:42:09] So—

Chelsea [00:42:09] And not basing your self-worth on follower count, I feel like that's the biggest—the biggest, most damaging thing about Instagram, too, is we're starting to literally base who we are on how many followers we have. And it's absolutely nuts—

Amelia [00:42:24] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:42:24] That that's still what we're striving for. So yeah, like you said, I think there's a lot to be explored in the conversation of, like, what is just enough, what's okay, I'm done. Like I don't need to be striving to double, triple, quadruple every single month. And I think—

Amelia [00:42:39] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:42:39] Yeah, that's the way Instagram is built. And I think people need to understand that at the end of the day, it's a platform that has to make money. It makes money through ads. It gets ads by keeping you on the platform, which is why there's so many updates. So, understanding—

Amelia [00:42:52] Mmhm.

Chelsea [00:42:52] The back end of how things work too might help you reframe your relationship to it being like, I'm not going to spend 5 hours on here.

Amelia [00:42:59] Yeah.

Chelsea [00:42:59] Maybe I'll spend 10 minutes, but not 5 hours. And maybe that's how you're going to use Instagram.

Amelia [00:43:03] Yeah, definitely. I love that point. Just paying attention and unveiling the logic behind this technology, because it is a technology, it is a capitalist technology that is trying to claim our time for free. So, Chelsea, as we wrap up, how can people find you, come work with you, and get to know you on and offline?

Chelsea [00:43:25] Yes. My website is just chelseariffe.com. My Instagram is at @ChelseaRiffe. My podcast is called In My Non-Expert Opinion, and I offer one-on-one podcast coaching as well as a podcast course and Mic Drop, that's the name of it. The next live round will probably be in June but just get on my email list because you'll get all the updates and there will be an evergreen version of that coming out. So, if you want to do it self-paced, that will be live as well. So, you can check all that out on my website.

Amelia [00:43:55] Beautiful. And all of that is linked in the show notes. Or if you're watching on YouTube, in the description, you can find it there [music begins to overlap with the conversation]. So, I think that wraps up our conversation today. Thank you so much for being here, Chelsea.

Chelsea [00:44:06] Thank you [music gets louder].

Amelia [00:44:11] Thanks for listening to Off the Grid. Find links and resources in the show notes and don't forget to grab your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig that's softersounds.studio/byeig.

Amelia [00:44:27] This podcast is a Softer Sounds production. Our music is by Purple Planet and our logo is by n'Atelier Studio. If you'd like to make a podcast of your own, we'd love to help. Find more about our services at softersounds.studio. Until next time, we'll see you off the grid.