❤️‍🩹 Misinformation Hurts All of Us — Unpacking Social Media & Wellness Culture with Christy Harrison

Amelia [00:00:01] [Music begins to play overlapping with an important note] Hi, friends. Just a heads up that this episode includes conversations about diet culture and brief mentions of disordered eating. We don't give any examples and we don't go into it in depth but if just hearing mention of those topics might trigger you in the moment, I'd encourage you to skip this episode and listen to something else on the Off the Grid feed. Thanks so much for being here.

Amelia [00:00:25] [Music continues to play] Welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast for small business owners who want to leave social media without losing all their clients. I'm Amelia Hruby, writer, speaker, and founder of Softer Sounds podcast studio.

Amelia [00:00:38] On this show, I share stories, strategies, and experiments for growing your business with radical generosity and energetic sovereignty. Download your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig. And join us as we do it all off the grid [music jams and fades out].

Amelia [00:01:01] Hi, friends, and welcome to Off the Grid. I'm your host, Amelia Hruby, and you are listening to Season Two of this podcast about leaving social media without losing all your clients or any of your clients, hopefully.

Amelia [00:01:14] So far this season has been a lot of business talk. We've talked about marketing strategies, financial transparency, we had a great conversation about SEO, some real talk about Pinterest, but today's episode is going to pull back from being in the weeds of our businesses to have a conversation about the bigger picture of what's at stake on social media.

Amelia [00:01:35] To join me in that conversation, I am super excited to introduce today's guest, Christy Harrison. Christy is a registered dietitian, nutritionist, a certified intuitive eating counselor, and a journalist who has been covering food, nutrition, and health for more than 20 years. She is the author of two books, The Wellness Trap, which just came out so go get it, and Anti-Diet. And she's also the producer and host of the new podcast Rethinking Wellness and the amazing long-time show that hopefully you've heard of, Food Psych.

Amelia [00:02:06] Today, Christy is here to talk to us about parallels between wellness culture and social media and to unpack how social media platforms have led to mass misinformation and disinformation being spread online, which is actually harmful to all of us, whether we think we fall prey to it or not. So, without further ado, welcome, Christy. I'm so happy to have you on Off the Grid.

Christy [00:02:28] Thank you, Amelia. I'm so happy to be here.

Amelia [00:02:30] I want to start just on a personal note and say that I feel very connected to the way that your work intersects diet culture and social media culture. I don't know that that's, like, an intuitive connection for everyone, but it's really close to my experience actually. Every year I celebrate two personal holidays in addition to my birthday, I celebrate the day I broke up with diet culture, which was—

Christy [00:02:55] Mm.

Amelia [00:02:55] September 20th, 2018. And then, I celebrate the day I left Instagram, which is April 9th, 2021. And I love those holidays. I normally, like, make myself a cake or go on a retreat or, like, I try to do something to celebrate it. And again, like, I really feel that connection between those personal liberations, but I don't know that that's obvious to other people. So, I'm really excited to explore how they're connected in our conversation, and I'm so happy you're here.

Christy [00:03:24] Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm really excited to explore that too. I think it's, like, not talked about enough in—

Amelia [00:03:30] Mmhm.

Christy [00:03:31] Anti-diet spaces or, you know, cultural critical spaces of wellness culture and diet culture and then really want to unpack those and pull those apart.

Amelia [00:03:41] Yeah. So, to take us right into the thick of it. I was reading your book over the past week and this morning, and first of all, I want to invite our listeners to literally pause right now and go order it because you're going to want it by the end of this episode [chuckles]. So, do yourself a favor, get it now, then come back, and listen to the rest of it.

Amelia [00:04:00] But there are just so many things you say so cogently that I will probably just read aloud verbatim, and I want to start doing that with a quote from the introduction. So, in your intro, you say, "You might say that wellness is to true well-being, what social media is to human connection, an ongoing attempt to attain the pinnacle of the thing which only sometimes succeeds and more often takes people further from their objectives to the tune of billions of dollars per year." Could we start there? Like, could you unpack for us a bit, like, what's the difference between wellness and well-being that you point to? And then, the difference between social media and human connection from there?

Christy [00:04:40] Yeah. So, you know, wellness is this multi-trillion-dollar industry that is geared towards trying to optimize— always— always optimizing your health. And, you know, the way that looks is different for everybody. But I think it's like— it's always this receding— this— this goal that's receding in the distance, it's never quite attainable. And so, if you're someone with chronic illness or unexplained symptoms, it's, you know, managing those symptoms, managing those illnesses, but not just any old way. It's doing it the quote unquote, "natural way." It's doing it the way that's, you know, seen as being morally better than going the pharmaceutical route or whatever.

Christy [00:05:19] And if you're someone who is, you know, already in pretty good health it's, like, managing whatever symptoms come up for you, whatever sort of minor aches and pains or whatever, again, in that sort of quote unquote "natural way."

Christy [00:05:32] And if you're someone who doesn't struggle with any of those things, then it's, you know, always optimizing again, like, your looks, your health, your biomarkers, your sleep, you know, all of these different things that can be tracked and quantified and supposedly optimized. And I think everybody sort of across the spectrum of illness and, you know, health and everybody across the spectrum of socioeconomic status increasingly, as well, is sort of being targeted by the wellness industry and wellness culture to try to get us to, like, optimize in whatever way we can and to spend our money on that.

Christy [00:06:09] And, you know, true well-being— what I see a true well-being as is— is much more holistic than what wellness actually— even though it purports to be holistic—

Amelia [00:06:21] Mmhm.

Christy [00:06:21] You know, sort of focuses largely on the physical, right, optimizing all of these different physical aspects of our health and maybe, you know, mental health in the sense of like a meditation app or going to therapy or whatever. But it's not— it's you know— it's seen as like, you can't be on medication, you can't be, you know, suffering from any sort of significant mental illness. You have to be doing the right lifestyle changes or whatever to— to try to manage all of that versus well-being, I think encompasses much more of a true holistic sense of— of who we are as people.

Christy [00:06:51] You know, the mental, emotional, social, economic kind of aspects of our lives in addition to the physical health and, you know, thinking about true well-being, not as— as optimizing or feeling like you have to be totally free of illness or symptoms, but that you can actually, you know, live and feel secure and whole and safe and grounded in yourself even while struggling with, you know, some physical health challenges or even while living with disabilities or chronic illnesses.

Christy [00:07:23] And you know, that those things are— it's not— well— well-being and chronic conditions are not mutually exclusive and the way that they're sort of seen in wellness. In wellness, it's like, "Put your disease into remission, get off all medications, heal yourself with food, heal yourself naturally." And I think those are really unrealistic standards for people to be pushed towards. And well-being is much more of a— a— it's a better— a better approach in terms of what people can actually attain. It's a much more attainable and achievable goal, you know, given the circumstances of people's lives.

Amelia [00:08:02] Mmhm.

Christy [00:08:03] And then, in terms of social media versus connection or, you know, social media versus true human connection, I think social media bills itself as connecting us, right? That sort of, like, the initial idea was to connect all of humanity and that therefore something good would come out of that. And I think— you know, with the Internet, I think we've all had benefits, right? Like, I'm talking to you right now because of relationships formed online.

Amelia [00:08:28] Mmhm.

Christy [00:08:28] And, you know, it's wonderful. And the way that social media has been created and sort of the incentives that exist in the business model to keep us online, to maximize engagement, you know, to keep us clicking and liking and sharing so that we'll be served more ads, I think, take us away from true human connection because—

Amelia [00:08:49] Mmhm.

Christy [00:08:49] We can get into this more. But, you know, the mandate to maximize engagement really drives us towards content that promotes polarization, controversy, anger, moral outrage, you know, seemingly novel content. All of that is shown to maximize engagement the best. And so, that's what kind of goes viral and keeps people on the platforms and so ultimately disconnects us. I think disconnects us from each other, disconnects us from our bodies, disconnects us from our natural world. And so, this thing that was sort of set out to, you know, enhance human connection, I think is— is driving us apart in so many ways.

Amelia [00:09:25] Yeah. Something that's coming up for me as you're describing both wellness and social media as opposed to well-being and human connection, as I think that within wellness and social media there is a very strong aspirational drive. It's, like, always orienting us toward, I want to say more, but it's not even always more, right, because in diet culture it's like you can never be thin enough or in social media, you can never have enough followers or in wellness, like, you can never be natural enough. Like, there's always something that we're being pointed to that is unobtainable or unachievable. There's no end in sight—

Christy [00:10:04] Mm.

Amelia [00:10:04] And there never will be. And something I've unpacked on the podcast before is the way that social media platforms are designed such that they're always changing the game so we can't actually get really good at them. And I think similarly, when wellness becomes embedded in capitalism, there's always something new that you must be doing because there needs to be an— you know, a new product, a new market, a new whatever it is explored.

Amelia [00:10:32] [Takes a deep breath] And I think, you know, I'd counter that with well-being or human connection where like what I hope [laughs lightly]— where I want for those are really to develop that sense of, like, enoughness, like, to feel sated and fulfilled by, you know, my experience of my body or my spirit in the case of well-being or by my relationships in the case of connection, it's almost, like, there's just a striving or an aspirational quality to— you know, one side of these systems we're talking about that— that maybe we're looking for a different value system for ourselves elsewhere.

Christy [00:11:06] Yeah, I think that's totally right. I think that well-being and social connect— or human connection can be— like outside of capitalism can exist sort of—

Amelia [00:11:17] Mmhm.

Christy [00:11:17] On their own terms and where we don't have to constantly be striving for more or told that we need something new and that something new is broken with us and this is the way to fix it.

Amelia [00:11:28] Mm.

Christy [00:11:28] You know, I think, yeah, the way that wellness is so embedded in capitalism just keeps us constantly having to search and purchase. And, you know, it keeps media companies having to cover new things and chase the latest story or the latest study or the latest trend or whatever it is and serve that to us rather than just, sort of, allowing people to sit with the sort of basic, boring, like, stuff that works that, you know, has been known to work for a long time for promoting well-being if it's, you know, physical well-being or whatever, but also, you know, social connection and relationships and just allowing people to feel whole and enough. I think that goes so much further to promoting our well-being than the sense that there's always something wrong with us and that we need to be constantly trying to fix it.

Amelia [00:12:17] [Sighs and chuckles] Yeah, don't we all get caught up in that, I think especially on social media.

Christy [00:12:24] Yeah, the comparison— it's just— you know, I think it's human nature to compare and to look at other people and see how you measure up. And I think social media weaponizes that, you know, with likes, with comments, with follower counts, like all of that stuff is very much designed to tap into our desire to see how we stack up, what our status is in the social order. And yeah, like you said, you know, it's sort of— there's never enough— like you can never amass enough followers, you can never get enough likes to offset that sort of unease that I think is created by this sense of like, "Am I— am I doing it right? And my measuring up?" The constant looking over your shoulder. And I see that as someone who is somewhat of an influencer, I guess, although I don't really use it— use social media in that way.

Christy [00:13:10] But you know, I have a lot of followers on Instagram and can post something and sell a book or fill a course or whatever I need to do, which is a useful benefit of it and— you know, connect with people to a point as well and make new relationships. But what I found in my own relationship with social media is just that the— the harm really seems to outweigh the good and the constant anxiety that it creates and always feeling like I need to, you know, be getting more and there's like— it's sort of like drug addiction in a way, too, where, you know, the high never is quite as high, you're always chasing that first high because—

Amelia [00:13:49] Mmhm.

Christy [00:13:49] It takes more and more and more of the substance to like get the same result. And so, you know, more and more and more followers, more and more and more likes never quite, like, scratches that itch. It never quite— you know, leads to the sense— because how could it, right, how could anything make you feel like you're enough that is simultaneously trying to make you feel like you're not enough so that you'll stay on the platform and spend more time? So, you know, it never— you never quite get there. And it— it's just incentive to keep going back for more and more and more.

Amelia [00:14:18] Yeah, I think that's definitely endemic and intentional to how the platforms are designed. And there are now all of these lenses that we're using to talk about our discontent on social media, whether it be an addiction framework or, you know, I've often used attachment theory as a framework to talk about my relationship to social media or, you know, all of these ways that we try to explain our discontent to ourselves [chuckles].

Amelia [00:14:43] But really what I always try to get back to is, like, the platforms are making choices. Like, there's a reason we feel this way, just like there's a reason we feel like we can never have enough money under capitalism. There's a reason we feel like we can never be well enough within wellness. It's the nature of the system. But I think what I'm really interested in, and once we understand that, what are the new systems that we build, what are the new values we cultivate, the new practices that we uncover together that center enough-ness, that center fulfillment, that center human connection and well-being in these things that we're talking about [sound blast transition].

Amelia [00:15:21] Something you mentioned earlier that I do want to take a step deeper into is the polarization of content on social media [chuckles], but also the polarization of ourselves on social media. So, in Season One, I had Vicky Curtis on the podcast and she was one of the writers of The Social Dilemma. So, we did an episode where she talked about how YouTube especially— that all these studies that have been done that show, like, if you just let it autoplay videos, it will always autoplay toward more extreme, more polarizing viewpoints regardless of where you start. Like, whether you start with, like, the fluffiest animal video ever, you will eventually end up in some, like, right-wing space on the Internet if you just let it go for a long time. And I'm wondering— you talk about this in your book as well, but how do you see that playing out in wellness specifically, like it's often talked about in terms of maybe politics— like I just useD the phrase right-wing there for my example. But— but yeah, how do you see it in wellness?

Christy [00:16:21] Yeah. So, it's interesting how that same dynamic plays out in wellness. Like, people who come in seeking out just sort of innocuous wellness content, you know, healthy eating or I mean weight loss is its own whole fraught thing but—

Amelia [00:16:36] Mmhm.

Christy [00:16:37] You know, people will come in sort of with this benign diet culture idea of just wanting to lose weight and get some healthy eating tips or whatever. And coming in with that sort of interest tells the algorithm to serve them more content like that. But again, increasing— you know, takes them to increasingly extreme places so you get from healthy eating or weight loss or whatever to really extreme diets to eventually pro-eating-disorder content in many cases. And there's—

Amelia [00:17:05] Mm.

Christy [00:17:06] Evidence of that from Francis Haugen's testimony about Meta or Facebook and how Instagram radicalizes young girls in that way. And we just saw a report in December of 2022 from the Center for Countering Digital Hate about how TikTok does that as well to young girls. And, you know, if you come on with, like, a blank slate account, that's, you know, ostensibly belongs to a 13-year-old girl who wants to lose weight, you'll end up in these pro-eating disorder and pro-self-harm spaces as well so it's really, really problematic from, like, a mental health standpoint as well as, you know, fostering disordered eating. And I think that's— you know, that's the— the sort of data and evidence that we have is, like, focusing specifically on young girls but I think we see that happen with people all across the age and gender spectrum. You know it's—

Amelia [00:17:58] Mm.

Christy [00:17:58] It's happening to people who come in seeking out recipes or, you know, looking for clean eating tips or whatever it might be, you know, these sort of wellness— wellness culture interests that tell the algorithm somebody is susceptible really to that kind of content. And then they get served more and more and more extreme stuff so that they end up on, you know, someone's Instagram or TikTok who's promoting, you know, anti-vax attitudes—

Amelia [00:18:28] Mm.

Christy [00:18:28] Or eschewing cancer treatment in favor of, quote unquote, "natural methods," or getting off all psychotropic medication through supposedly lifestyle changes. And I think the popularity of some of these big accounts who promote that, I don't think they would have the kind of reach and pull that they have without these algorithms that radicalize people and that bring people there. You know, I talked to someone in the book who is now a researcher studying mis- and disinformation online and, you know, has written really beautifully about the anti-vax— you know, the way that social media amplifies the anti-vax movement. And she herself got interested in it because as a new mom in, like, 2015 or so, she was seeking out information about how to make your own baby food and cloth diapering and—

Amelia [00:19:14] Mmhm.

Christy [00:19:15] And Facebook then recommended groups to her like backyard chicken raising and organic household products and things that crunchy people like even though those weren't really her wheelhouse. But then she's like, "Oh, I'm going to check out the backyard chickens because they're cute and whatever," and then ends up— you know, the algorithm takes her further and further and eventually serves her anti-vax groups and, you know, parents— I think new parents are so vulnerable to that.

Amelia [00:19:40] Mmhm.

Christy [00:19:40] I think especially those who really want to do things in a more holistic or natural way, you know, and thinking about, like, environmental footprints and, you know, people who have these sort of preexisting views, I think, are unfortunately really primed to be pulled into extreme forms of content and misinformation.

Amelia [00:20:02] Yeah, I feel like a lot of people I know have a sort of like, "Well, that would never be me," mentality toward the things we see and believe online. And then, I just find over and over again as a human with a Ph.D. in philosophy, like I have been trained for a decade on critical reading and thinking skills, still I will, like, quote something and I'm like, "Actually, I just saw a human I don't even know who that is on Twitter say that," like, why do I— like it's so intentional on creators— some creators parts and then unintentional on our consumer minds to pick up these things that are being presented to us as fact. And I think that you're right that especially when we're coming in the case of new parents or in the case of folks with chronic conditions, you know, I think new parents are so disillusioned with the lack of parental and child care support in the U.S., I think people with chronic health conditions are so disillusioned by the lack of support or understanding in the medical industry, it makes sense that you would seek other sources of information. But something that I have seen is, like, our desire to have some person give us all the answers just leads us to swap out one problematic system with another deeply problematic system or person—

Christy [00:21:23] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:21:23] In these instances. And then, we never get the critical questioning along the way, like it doesn't really show up anywhere. It's just like, "This isn't working for me. Let me go find this." And there's no, like, real parsing of where does this information come from? Why does it matter to me? Who is it useful for? You know, some of those basic media skills that we're not being taught?

Christy [00:21:44] Totally. And yeah, I think with social media, those basic media skills don't necessarily even come to mind, you know, when you think about like a lot of us have been trained to look at photoshopped images in magazines and think, "Okay, that's unrealistic. That's not a beauty standard that is attainable by regular people." But then on social media you see, you know, someone that you know in real life or someone that's a friend of a friend or whatever that you've met, and then their body looks a certain way or they're, like, looking perfect with their filters or whatever. And it's, I think, harder to sort of separate that out.

Amelia [00:22:18] That sort of collapsing from I quote unquote, "know better" than to compare myself to a supermodel. But that doesn't apply when I'm just comparing myself to, like, you know, my cousin's friend or, like, my ex-boyfriend's new person or whatever.

Christy [00:22:32] Right.

Amelia [00:22:32] It— you know, maybe those moments that really— ugh— invite that click-clutching comparison.

Christy [00:22:37] Totally.

Amelia [00:22:38] And I think too— a study you cite in the book that I just want to have here for listeners as well is about the spread of rumors. And you cite this 2018 study where researchers tracked 125,000 rumors spread by more than 3 million Twitter users, and they found that the false claims went further faster than the truth did. And I think— I'm looking at the numbers now or I copied them so I could get the numbers right. But in the study— or you quote the study as saying, "The truth rarely reached more than a thousand people while viral misinformation routinely racked up audiences of between 1,000 and 100,000, and it spread about six times more quickly. False information was also 70% more likely to be retweeted than the truth, and it was mostly real people, not bots doing the retweeting." And then, you point to, like, the people doing this— the people spreading misinformation in turn are rewarded with likes and shares, which reinforces this dynamic in the current social media landscape. “Lies often go viral while the truth languishes." And honestly, I had to, like, stop reading after [laughs]— when I read that paragraph, I was like, "This is brutal."

Christy [00:23:51] Yeah, it's bleak.

Amelia [00:23:53] Just how quickly misinformation spreads. And maybe this is a good point to pause— and I— something I wanted to ask you just for clarification is like, what's the difference between misinformation and disinformation online?

Christy [00:24:07] Yeah, that's a great question. So, misinformation is just false information— doesn't matter the intent, someone could be spreading misinformation like— like you said, you know, the sort of way that we all kind of reflexively do, like, "Oh, I saw this thing on Twitter or somebody told me this and I'm just repeating it and passing it on." So, there's no intent behind it necessarily. Disinformation is misinformation knowingly spread with intent to deceive. So, it's, you know, someone weaponizing that misinformation. And we see that a lot on social media. And of course, you can't really know, like, what someone's intent is truly, you know, you never know exactly what's going on for another person. So, some researchers in this area sort of advocate just saying misinformation for all of it, just to kind of not attribute intent to anyone. But I think there are some examples in some cases where it sort of becomes obvious where someone stands and that they are, in fact intending to deceive. And so, I think we can use disinformation in those in those contexts.

Amelia [00:25:07] Oh, yeah, certainly. I think that something else you point to in your book that I think many of us are susceptible to is this collapsing of sources of information and of evidence. And this is really challenging for me because as a feminist, especially as a feminist in academia, I really have worked hard in my academic career to uphold the importance of personal experience and the importance of individual narrative, especially when it's women or gender non-conforming or non-binary folks who are sharing their experience. Like, I want that to be evident. It's so important to me to take that seriously in the face of [chuckles softly], you know, capital S— Science saying, "No, that's subjective, like only objectivity is truth." Like, it's just so important to me that those personal experiences matter. And then, I go on social media and all of a sudden, I'm like, "Oh, no, I need to see some science again." Like, I need some [laughs]— get me some studies, I need more evidence, and I really struggle to hold those two things together. How do you think about them?

Christy [00:26:10] So, same— yeah, I definitely relate to that and that was actually a struggle and a dance in writing this book was, like, how do I hold the importance of personal experience and marginalized folks telling their stories in the face of this, like, scientific establishment, wanting to sort of dismiss— or historically especially wanting to dismiss these stories and then the way that social media turns everything into personal experience and anecdote over scientific evidence.

Christy [00:26:43] And I think the wellness industry also sort of capitalizes on the historical problems with science and, you know, the fact that science has left so many people out of research and hasn't really accounted for things that— you know, especially conditions that affect mostly women and marginalized folks like doesn't, you know, do a great job of accounting for those things. And I think wellness culture and the wellness industry sort of take that pre-existing issue and sort of those pitfalls of science and weaponize that and sort of use that to sell dubious practices to people, you know, because the reality is the conventional healthcare system has made so many of us feel dismissed and unheard and, you know, underserved.

Christy [00:27:33] And so, we're looking for other approaches in other spaces. And I'm someone with multiple chronic illnesses myself and, you know, have gone through so many— went through so many years to get diagnosed and to get treatment and the treatments that exist for certain things, like, aren't really great or don't have a lot of, you know, efficacy and— like for everyone and stuff but it's like the best available evidence says that these should work for some people or whatever.

Christy [00:27:58] So, you know, I have definitely felt like there is something missing and wanting to look elsewhere for answers. And I think the wellness industry's right there to sort of amplify that and to make us feel, like, even more— you know, to say, "Yeah, like, doctors don't want you to know this." You know, it sort of verges into conspiratorial thinking a lot of times, I think. It's like, "Doctors don't want to tell you the secret to longevity, but we'll share it with you and—" or, you know, doctors— I mean, this is something that feels true to a lot of us, too— "Doctors don't get to the root cause of the problem, they just want to medicate the symptoms, right?"

Christy [00:28:33] And that like— yeah— in the conventional health care system sometimes that is all there's really time for. And so, you know, like an integrative or functional or alternative medicine provider saying, like, we'll get to the root cause. We're not going to treat you in a one-size-fits-all way. We're not going to just address symptoms, is really appealing and really feels like something we want and need and deserve.

Christy [00:28:54] So, I think it's— it's really tricky to, like, call out the ways in which alternative and integrative medicine, but also, like, just wellness culture more broadly are offering solutions that don't have a lot of great evidence behind them and that can, in fact, lead to worse harm while also holding space for the fact that people do feel unserved and undervalued and sort of disrespected in the conventional system and are looking for things that will help and that there are some real placebo effects, if nothing else, to certain treatments that are offered in in wellness spaces.

Christy [00:29:29] And that beyond that, like it's part of a family of placebo effects, is something called the care effect, which is just feeling like a provider cares for you and listens to you and has empathy and time for you can lead to better health outcomes, you know, no matter what they're offering, right?

Christy [00:29:45] But, to me, I guess it comes back to sort of looking at the overall harm and sort of the— the, like, what's— what's actually coming out of this approach, right? If someone is going to wellness or alternative medicine and getting this care effect and getting benefit from that or getting placebo effects from supplements or dietary practices or whatever, and they're not being harmed or they're not having, you know, really negative side effects that are detracting from their mental health or quality of life, their relationship with food and their body, then maybe that works for that person, you know?

Christy [00:30:19] But I see so many people in my practice working with disordered eating who've had tremendous harm come from it, you know, who've developed really serious disordered eating and eating disorders and are fearful of food and feel terrible about their bodies and are on these, you know, intense supplement regimens that— you know, that plus the dietary restrictions can cause a lot of digestive issues and a lot of other issues, you know, hormonal and— and other issues related to that related to restricting too much or excesses or deficiencies in certain vitamins and minerals.

Christy [00:30:53] And so, like, seeing all of that harm being caused, I just want to sound the alarm and I think there's— there's a history of, like, skepticism of alternative medicine that is really valid, but also, like, really dismissive and sort of harsh and not appealing to— you know, it makes people feel stupid like— like— like they're insufficiently skeptical and insufficiently smart and I don't think that's helpful.

Christy [00:31:20] And as someone who is— you know, I think of myself as a pretty smart and skeptical person, and yet I was pulled in too. I know that it's not just about intelligence, it's not just about natural skepticism, like, there's something more to this that, you know, we're being sucked into things that aren't necessarily helpful and that can be harmful because we're— because we're desperate or because we just don't have the time, you know, under capitalism, like, maybe we just don't have the time to do a deep dive into the science and someone says something that sounds plausible and we think like, "What do we have to lose?"

Christy [00:31:54] And so, we go for it, you know? And so, just in my experience and that of many people I've interviewed and worked with, I see it as there is a lot to lose actually, there's a lot of harm that can be done. And, you know, in some cases, these supposed treatments that don't have evidence behind them can be deadly. And so, I think it's really important to take that seriously.

Christy [00:32:15] And, you know, at the same time, if something works for someone and it doesn't have these negative sides to it, who am I to say that that's bad? You know, I'm not trying to paint this— all of wellness culture with a broad brush, I'm— I'm just trying to— trying to point out the ways that it causes harm. And I think, like, you know, science and the scientific method for all their fraught-ness [laughs wearily] and sort of, like, leaving people out, there is a real benefit to looking scientifically at something and saying like, "Is it this treatment alone in and of itself that's helping, or is this treatment a placebo or sort of being amplified by placebo effects?" That's important to know, right? Just to kind of say like, "Yeah, this thing, in and of itself, might not work, but, you know, you might be getting benefits from other areas." I think it's important to know that just for our own, you know, knowledge and understanding of the world so that we don't spread misinformation and have misinformation used to sell us things.

Amelia [00:33:13] Yeah, something I was thinking while you were saying that last piece is like, "Who are we to have a right to say something's not working for someone?" But I think also holding like, "Who is that person that's working for— like, what right do they have to say it'll work for someone else and—"

Christy [00:33:27] Right.

Amelia [00:33:27] This is something I've really been thinking a lot about in— you know, I don't work in wellness or health in any capacity, but in business coaching and consulting I do. And I've definitely had folks reach out who want support and I will have to say things like, "This has worked for me and I will help you try to see if it will work for you," and other times I can say, "This has worked for dozens of people I have worked with and, like, we've done it a lot and it feels a little more tested and it's not just a me thing," but I think, again, social media like collapses so much of that. But it's just a place in my own practice I see where I lean— you know, where do I lean more into being an influencer and where do I lean a little more into being a scientist, I guess.

Christy [00:34:06] Mm.

Amelia [00:34:06] But where have I, like, experimented and have some evidence and some— some data points that aren't just myself [sound blast transition]?

Amelia [00:34:13] Something else I was thinking of as you were talking as just— like I just got really sad for how little, like, inner-knowledge and inner-authority we get to cultivate in our society. And I don't say this to, like, blame people in any sense. It's just, like, I really feel it— the sort of sadness that, like, we're always taught to look outside of ourselves for the truth of our bodies and our lives. And I think so much of the healing of any sort of well-being practices is just about, like, returning our authority in— into our own experience.

Christy [00:34:50] Yeah, I feel that too, for sure. I think, like, wellness culture capitalizes on that preexisting lack of inner authority, right? I think it's like right there to say, "Okay, well, it's not a diet, but it's a lifestyle. And here are the rules of this engagement, you know, and here are the things you have to do to be well."

Christy [00:35:08] And it's sort of, like, insidious, too, because it makes us think that we're actually listening to ourselves in some ways because it's— you know, we're getting empathy and support from care providers that are saying like, "Yeah, you know, these symptoms are real, these symptoms are valid. We're going to get to the bottom of this." But then the explanation they give is like, "Oh, you have adrenal fatigue or something," which is just, like, this total detour from what it actually really is, you know, because that's not a condition that even exists. It's like— it's just taking people away from something that could actually offer them healing or support.

Amelia [00:35:43] Yeah. People really prey on that desire to belong somewhere or to be told that your needs matter or to be told that, you know, they see you. And a lot of, I think, what we're talking about does come down to that, just having your feelings or your experiences affirmed. And when a lot of people or places or systems don't affirm them, like, who knows where you're going to end up to get that affirmation.

Christy [00:36:09] [Softly] Right.

Amelia [00:36:09] On a weird corner of the internet most of the time [laughs].

Christy [00:36:11] Yeah. Which then— yeah— the social media spaces that you go looking for that belonging and connection just funnel you right towards. It's, like, a perfect storm.

Amelia [00:36:22] Yeah. Do you think that wellness and social media can be disconnected in this day and age, or are they just fully entangled?

Christy [00:36:33] I think they're pretty fully entangled. I mean, I think well-being and social media can be disconnected if we think about well-being as this distinct sort of— and, you know, terminology gets so co-opted so easily so I'm not like putting a stake in the ground for saying well-being instead of wellness, but I just mean, like, a way of approaching our well-being that's separate from wellness culture and the wellness industry.

Christy [00:36:58] Like, I think, you know, in some ways getting off social media is not necessarily a prerequisite to that, but maybe a facilitator of connecting to greater well-being— you know, like, getting away from these—

Amelia [00:37:14] Mmhm.

Christy [00:37:14] Spaces that are funneling us to more and more extremes and, you know, getting back in touch with ourselves and what really feels good to us and, you know, sort of away from the input of other minds. Like, in the— in the book, I quote Cal Newport who— from his book, Digital Minimalism, who talks about solitude deprivation and how, like, in this day and age, we're so deprived of solitude of— of moments where we just can be bored and be sort of listening to ourselves and have a lack of input from other minds, because we always have input from other minds.

Christy [00:37:49] And every moment we fill with picking up our phones and looking at social media or looking at a news feed or connecting with someone, you know, it's like we're disconnecting from ourselves in those moments. And so, I think, you know, finding true well-being to me does involve solitude and, like, reconnecting to ourselves and our physical and mental selves and, you know, getting away from social media and maybe devices more generally, at least not entirely but, you know, just to whatever extent we need to re-cultivate that solitude, I think is important.

Christy [00:38:23] But I think, you know, because wellness culture is so entangled with capitalism and capitalism and social media are so entangled as well, like, you know, we talk about banning TikTok or whatever in this country, but I don't think that's going to happen. And I don't, you know, for various reasons, like I don't think we should ban TikTok unless we ban all social media. You know.

Amelia [00:38:42] [Laughs] It's just xenophobia.

Christy [00:38:44] Right? Yeah, that’s like it's— you know, it doesn't have— it's not coming from a place that I agree with but—

Amelia [00:38:50] Yeah.

Christy [00:38:50] I would potentially consider banning all social media or, you know, as some experts in this area advocate, banning at least the business model— banning the surveillance capitalism business model of social media, because that's part of— you know, a big part of what drives this push toward engagement and push toward maximizing it and keeping people on the platforms through division and hate and controversy and all the rest. So—

Amelia [00:39:14] Yeah.

Christy [00:39:14] I think, you know, I would certainly consider that. But yeah, I think it's— it's really hard to disentangle what is the contemporary idea of wellness from social media altogether.

Amelia [00:39:24] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe just to start to wrap up— in the book by the end of the misinformation disinformation chapter, like you have this really kind of strong take that, like, social media is bad for us and yet, as you admitted at the beginning— or shared at the beginning, you are still on it. You know, you still have an Instagram account, you still use it, as far as I can tell [laughs].

Christy [00:39:48] Minimally. But yes, I do.

Amelia [00:39:50] Yeah. I mean, I think most of our listeners— no one here is judging you because almost everyone is, like, still on social media and tuning into this podcast. But how do you think about that? I bet a lot of people look up to you. I would be curious to know how you process that kind of both/and.

Christy [00:40:03] Yeah, so I think if I had $1,000,000, I would be off social media tomorrow, you know—

Amelia [00:40:09] Mmhm.

Christy [00:40:09] Or today. Like, as soon as that money hit my bank account, I'd be out. It's like— it's— it's just a part of being in a capitalistic system and trying to, like, make a living as, you know, a small business owner and an author and a writer, like, podcaster that I have felt like I had to stay there, you know, and I had to like, at least keep the if nothing else, just keep the numbers there to sell to my publisher to say, like, "Look, I have this— I still have this platform. Like, you can buy my next book confidently knowing that however many— whatever percentage of people from social media usually buy a book will buy this book." I haven't quite been able to pull the trigger on leaving for that reason. And—

Amelia [00:40:51] Yeah.

Christy [00:40:51] You know, because that's part of like the business model of publishing is— is wanting to sign up authors who have their own preexisting platform to come in with. I did get off Twitter because I just couldn't anymore [laughs]. You know, Elon Musk took over and things all started to really hit the fan. I just felt like it was a liability. I hadn't used it in over a year anyway. I went on maternity leave and stopped using it and, like, didn't come back right away and didn't miss it. So, you know, I just— I just hadn't used it. But I figured, like, all the security issues with it and stuff, it was just, like, kind of a liability sitting there, not logging in so I deleted it and haven't looked back.

Christy [00:41:29] Instagram and Facebook, you know, as much as I really do not want to support Meta and their business model, I feel like I just have had to be there thus far. Although that's starting to change as a result of listening to your podcast and thinking about, like, other ways that I can build a business. And I've been exploring Substack lately with my new podcast— I launched the podcast on Substack. So, you know—

Amelia [00:41:53] Yeah.

Christy [00:41:54] Building an audience there and looking to do some, you know, maybe paid subscriber-only sort of content and see if that helps build the business that way. But really it is just, like, an economic decision at this point and I wish it weren't and I think that with, like, your work and other people I've been talking to who are just so sick of social media and wanting to step away and feeling that— you know, feeling the way in which it's, like, detracting from our overall well-being—

Amelia [00:42:23] Mm.

Christy [00:42:23] I think there are hopefully going to be more and more people who are making that jump and leaving it and then showing, you know, the publishers of the world like, "Hey, I can still have an audience and sell books or I can still have clients and, you know, have a service business or whatever it might be without having to be on social media." And I think some of these industries, you know, Hollywood famously has like no imagination [laughs] in terms of like casting actors and stuff. And I think in some ways the publishing industry doesn't have a huge imagination when it comes to how they see someone and being able to sell books or whatever. But I think it'll help those industries maybe see a little bit more possibility in other approaches.

Amelia [00:43:04] Well, I— I feel the tides turning also. I will even say from behind the scenes, like the difference between the reception of Season One of Off the Grid and now Season Two of Off the Grid, I'm like, "Oh, people are way more on board this season." Like, everyone's feeling it a lot more this year than they were a year ago. And I applaud you for setting up foundations in other places. So, cheers to that.

Amelia [00:43:29] And for anyone listening, I always support, you know, an owned platform where you own your audience. And that's something I want to say to people too, is like, it can be slow and that can be good. The idea that you need to, like, decide social media is bad, leave forever, and, like, have something else, and all that happens in an instant. Like, that's part of the problem [laughs].

Christy [00:43:50] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:43:50] That's the same temporality of social media we're trying to let go of.

Amelia [00:43:54] Like, I really support a slow, intentional disengagement from these platforms. I really support, like, get your foundations in order because you're totally right that, like, you want to sell another book, you need to have a lot of other stuff in place so you can do that. Or, you know, I personally decided I don't ever want to sell a book again because I don't want to have to be on social media. And so, I changed a huge trajectory for my career. After my first book, I was like, "Mm mm, not doing this."

Christy [00:44:24] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:44:24] And that's a choice I made because I wanted to be off social media, but it's not the choice everyone's going to make so I think it sounds, like, you really see clearly, like, what you desire for yourself, how you can support yourself, and set up business foundations elsewhere. And I think letting that happen over time is really beautiful and good and what we can all give ourselves the grace to do.

Christy [00:44:43] Thank you. I so appreciate that. And I am also considering other— other avenues, actually, [Amelia chuckles lightly] you know, like, I have always seen myself as an author and a writer and wanting to write books and, you know, if— if what it takes is being on social media, but even more broadly, sort of like a kind of engagement with the world and with audiences that I think we're being asked to do in this age of social media. I don't 100% know if it's for me. You know, I haven't—

Amelia [00:45:12] Yeah.

Christy [00:45:12] I haven't opened up comments on my Substack even to paid subscribers because I'm like, "I just don't know if I want that, kind of, constant connection to people and constant input from other minds." And, like, I love connecting with my audience, I love connecting with people, but I need it to be in a boundaried way. I'm also an introvert. I'm also like— have anxiety and PTSD and, like, I need sort of a sense of, you know, safety and control over—

Amelia [00:45:38] Mmm.

Christy [00:45:39] How I engage with the world. And I think the way that authors and writers and publishers online more generally are, sort of, pulled to engage with the world is not conducive to that— that kind of safety and boundary-ness. So, yeah, I'm also definitely thinking about other— other possibilities. So, TBD on Christy Harrison's next steps [Amelia laughs and Christy joins in].

Amelia [00:46:02] Well, I can't wait to see it. In the meantime, let me go ahead and once again tell people they need to go order your book. I'm like, "Go get The Wellness Trap." It’s available anywhere books are sold. You're going to want to read it. You're going to want to put as many post-it notes on your copy as I have on mine, I'm sure. And Christy, where else can folks find you or what are other ways they can engage with your work?

Christy [00:46:25] Yeah, so I talked about my podcast a little bit. The new podcast, Rethinking Wellness, is available wherever you're listening to this, and that's sort of where I'm putting out the most content conversations these days. You can get it on Substack— rethinkingwellness.substack.com. And then, I also have my first podcast Food Psych— continues to live on anywhere you get your podcasts as well. And my first book, Anti-Diet, is available also wherever you get your books and you can go to my website if you want to see more of what I do— christyharrison.com is that URL.

Amelia [00:46:57] Beautiful. That will all be linked in the show notes as will, of course, the Leaving Social Media Toolkit that folks love and our list of 100 Ways to Share Your Work Without Social Media, if you want more resources to do some of the things Christy and I have been talking about at the end of this convo. And I think that's it for today. Christy, was there anything else you wanted to share or say before we sign off?

Christy [00:47:21] No, but just wanted to say thank you so much for having me. It's so great to talk with you and, like, feels very nourishing and exciting to have conversations about this sort of thing with someone as knowledgeable as you and who's, like, laid the foundation or started to clear the path, I think for a lot of us. So, I really appreciate it.

Amelia [00:47:39] [Outro music begins to play] I feel the same way about your work so thank you so much for being here. Thanks to listeners for tuning in and we will see you all off the grid.

Amelia [00:47:55] Thanks for listening to Off the Grid. Find links and resources in the show notes and don't forget to grab your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig. That's softersounds dot studio slash b-y-e-i-g.

Amelia [00:48:09] This podcast is a Softer Sounds production. Our music is by Purple Planet and our logo is by n'atelier Studio. If you'd like to make a podcast of your own, we'd love to help. Find more about our services at softersounds.studio. Until next time, we'll see you off the grid [music fades out].