🙅‍♀️ Saying Yes to the No — Creativity, Constraints & Content with grace allerdice

Amelia [00:00:02] [Music begins to play, overlapping with the introduction to the episode] Welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast for small business owners who want to leave social media without losing all their clients. I'm Amelia Hruby, writer, speaker, and founder of Softer Sounds podcast studio.

Amelia [00:00:14] On this show, I share stories, strategies, and experiments for growing your business with radical generosity and energetic sovereignty. Download your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig and join us as we do it all Off the Grid [music jams and fades out].

Amelia [00:00:37] Hi, friends. Amelia here. Welcome to Off the Grid, your favorite podcast about leaving social media without losing all your clients. I just want to start today's episode by thanking you for being here, this little podcast that could, has seen a lot of growth this spring.

Amelia [00:00:54] Shout out to Mar Grace and Nicole Antoinette and so many other amazing people who have found and shared the show. I really, really appreciate it.

Amelia [00:01:04] We just crossed 15,000 downloads for the show and it's because of each and every one of you. So, I want to thank you for being here. And of course, I want to ask you if you enjoy this show, please send it to a friend or send it to all of your business owner friends or send it to your newsletter list. Or you know what? Share it on your favorite social media platform. The folks that are still there definitely— probably— most likely need to hear something that I've said on this show [laughs] or that one of my amazing guests has said.

Amelia [00:01:33] It's just been a really exciting period of growth for Off the Grid and for me and for all of us. And I am so, so, so grateful.

Amelia [00:01:42] Now on to today's episode. So, on today's episode, I am inviting back one of my return guests, my friend and collaborator, Mary Grace Allerdice of home—body podcast and Third House Things, and some other amazing, juicy, lovely business endeavors.

Amelia [00:01:59] In today's conversation, we are going to talk about what it means to be a creator-led business and how we do and don't bring our creative practices to our day-to-day work.

Amelia [00:02:12] We also talk about the power of saying no, how important constraints are for our work, and we dabble in a little conversation about content, both the ways we approach content in our businesses and recapping some of those harms that I talked about in the, "Ten Things I Hate about Content Marketing," episode.

Amelia [00:02:31] We recorded this conversation because Grace and I co-teach a course called Living Systems and our spring cohort is opening for registration May 1st, which is next week if you're listening to this when it comes out. We hope that you enjoy the conversation, sign up for the email list to learn more about Living Systems, and that we get to see you in the Air Cohort, which starts in just a few weeks.

Amelia [00:02:52] Thanks again for being here. Thanks for sharing the podcast with all of your business owner, artist, podcaster, writer, amazing, beautiful, wonderful friends. And I think that's all I gotta say. So, let's go ahead and dive on into this week's episode of Off the Grid with Mary Grace Allerdice [splash sounds].

Amelia [00:03:10] Hi, Grace. How are you today?

Mary Grace [00:03:13] Hello. I'm good. I'm so excited to be here. I feel like whenever we hang out, we just, like, smile a lot and [Amelia laughs] I feel myself getting into that, where I'm just like, "Hey!"

Amelia [00:03:20] We're a smiley crew.

Mary Grace [00:03:22] For sure.

Amelia [00:03:22] I think we get it from our adorable dogs. We just inherited it from them.

Mary Grace [00:03:25] Yeah, for sure [laughs and Amelia joins in].

Amelia [00:03:27] Well, today's chat I will just start off by saying is in honor of our upcoming cohort of Living Systems. So, I'm really excited for that to start in May. I'm really excited to be doing that with you, and I'm especially excited to be having this conversation about creativity, constraints, and content, all things we're going to uncover in our Air Cohort this spring.

Amelia [00:03:51] But before we dive into that, let's just start with, like, a little peek behind the scenes and what's going on in our businesses lately. So, why don't we start by sharing just, like, a little bit of what's in our business ecosystem? Like, what are the sorts of things you're doing lately?

Mary Grace [00:04:07] Mmm. I feel like something that we both connect on is that we, like, find ourselves working [chuckles] on a lot of different things.

Amelia [00:04:15] Yes [laughs heartily].

Mary Grace [00:04:15] So, my business ecosystem— so I am married to someone who is a general contractor and I help run that business. So, I would say, I [laughs]—

Amelia [00:04:26] Yeah.

Mary Grace [00:04:26] I mean— there's a place— there's a world in which I am also— help build houses, [Amelia laughs] not with hammers and nails, but it's a lot of the, sort of, project management side of things.

Amelia [00:04:37] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:04:37] And there's sort of, like, the home—body ecosystem with the podcast, more spirit-based offerings, such as, like, retreats and courses and custom sessions, and then an emerging part of my business ecosystem which has been forming over the past year or so, is something that I've been playfully calling Third House Things, which is mostly— its systems consulting, essentially helping people with their workflows and operations and a lot of that often comes alongside custom building people's Notion workspaces with and for them.

Mary Grace [00:05:10] So, that's sort of, like, the things that are kind of bubbling up a lot. This is sort of in addition to being someone who has a life and a creative life that I like to keep out of my business, though it leaks in frequently. And yeah, I would say that sort of all of the business ecosystem at this point. How about you?

Amelia [00:05:27] So, I love Living Systems, and our systems work together, where our ecosystems overlap, intertwine. You know, alongside that I run a podcast studio called Softer Sounds so I work with generally two dozen— little more clients at any given time, helping them start or produce podcasts. And then, I also co-founded a business with my friend Taylor Elyse Morrison. So, we run the Lifestyle Business League together and then I also run Off the Grid. So that is, when it's in season, a weekly podcast and corresponding mini-course, and then it'll be a live workshop series later this summer. So, I think those are my current buckets. Yeah, it's, like, Softer Sounds, Off the Grid, Lifestyle Business League, Living Systems, you know, just a minor amount of things [laughs] I have going on.

Mary Grace [00:06:18] Just a few things going on. Yeah, not a big deal [laughs lightly].

Amelia [00:06:22] So, within your ecosystem, what's going on in your businesses lately? What sorts of struggles and successes are you encountering?

Mary Grace [00:06:31] I feel like something that's been arising a lot from, like, our conversation as friends and on— on Voxer together, which is sort of just an ongoing joy [Amelia laughs] in my life is our Voxer thread— is, of course, intersecting with a lot of my life lessons right now, is just a lot of Saturn medicine in my life. The past, like, three plus years and now with Saturn in Pisces, it feels like— it's like I'm learning to how to just interact with the no in a very yes way [laughs].

Amelia [00:06:55] Mmm.

Mary Grace [00:06:56] Like, how can I say yes to the no and get excited about it and really become the wall instead of just running into it all of the time?

Amelia [00:07:03] Mm.

Mary Grace [00:07:03] And I think a lot of that is about really leaning into our constraints and our limits and even just getting excited about it. So, there's a lot of ways that I feel like I've just been telling people no a lot lately. I think as a really practical example of that, you know, like, "No, actually this is not how our intake process works. I can't get you this last-minute thing for free that like— I can't bump you to the front of the line when all these other people have willingly paid and are patiently waiting."

Mary Grace [00:07:30] And I think on a personal level too, it's also that leaning more into, like, custom things and making special things, I think a lot of times and sometimes in the more like spirit-based part of my work or spirit-focused content of the work that can be this way, a lot of times the sessions where I just was starting to feel a little bit like a vending machine, which isn't necessarily the client's fault, it's my fault that I've set up something in such a way to where it sort of feels like that was the exchange.

Mary Grace [00:07:58] So, I feel like I'm focusing less on— I'm focusing more on how can I create something that I enjoy, that feels like it's resonating with, like, how my process works, and it's honoring that. Whereas I think before I was really focusing more on how it might— me guessing what might work best for them, what price do I think they want?

Mary Grace [00:08:15] And now I feel like I'm leaning more into, "This is the price that I need in order to feel good about doing this. This is the setup that I need in order to feel good about doing this. This is the kind of experience I want to offer," just focusing more on, like, the clarity and the honesty around those things—

Amelia [00:08:34] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:08:35] So that I can feel really good and generous in the containers that I'm in. And that's— it's something that I'm really enjoying. I never— yeah, I'm really enjoying the constraints, I'm enjoying the limits, I'm enjoying the being like, "Actually—," it just makes all the— the potential wishy-washy-ness at times of being like, "Is that something I could do? Oh, but I guess I could [mumbles]. But that's not what I do. I don't do that."

Amelia [00:08:54] Yeah.

Mary Grace [00:08:55] [Laughs] And that's just really— it makes a lot of conversations a lot easier. And it's feeling really good, feeling really adult and robust. How about you?

Amelia [00:09:02] [Chuckles] Yeah, well, I just want to say I love that phrase you used, "Saying yes to the no." Many years ago, I read Shonda Rhimes' book The Year of Yes—

Mary Grace [00:09:14] Mmm.

Amelia [00:09:14] And probably my favorite thing she says in that book or the thing that sticks with me the longest is she makes it very clear that the year of yes is not saying yes to everything, because every time you say yes to one thing, you are saying no to other things.

Mary Grace [00:09:27] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:09:27] And so, the year of yes is about refocusing on what you're affirming in your life, such that you let all of the other bullshit fall away. And I feel like that's really what I'm hearing when you talk about this medicine of the no. It's like you've become really clear in what you're saying yes to for yourself. And then, as a result, you have to say no to other people.

Mary Grace [00:09:45] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:09:45] And I feel that way in my business as well. It's like if I want to take three weeks off this summer, which I do and I'm doing [chuckles], then I gotta say no to a bunch of stuff, like it's just not going to happen. I just— no I'm not going to do that project or I feel you, especially on the urgency piece. Something I'm always saying at Softer Sounds is, "There's no emergencies in podcasting. Like, just because you feel like this needs to come out next week does not mean I'm going to bend my schedule and make that happen." So, I love these lessons. I love the sense of saying yes to the no.

Amelia [00:10:16] I think business is about being in the dance of centering yourself and your own needs and centering your clients' needs. But how we do that, when we do that, how we use no’s, walls, boundaries [laughs], really shapes how much we enjoy our work. So, I love all those reflections.

Mary Grace [00:10:33] Mm.

Amelia [00:10:33] I think, for me, what's going on in my business lately, has been a lot of release, I would say. March was a month of so much expansion for me— brought in a lot of new clients, brought in a lot of attention, I got a lot of good press or mentions, and brought a lot of new people into my ecosystem. I joked with you multiple times, I felt like all of March, I was just like— I was Hodor from Game of Thrones. I was just desperately trying so hard to hold open the portal of like, "Hold it open. I could take more [laughs]. I could receive!"

Amelia [00:11:10] Like, I was just in the space I was trying to receive. I was like, "I got this, I could receive this. I've done all of my energetic work to receive this much." And then, April has now been a month of contraction. Like, after all of that effortful expansion, I'm like [laugh softly], "Okay, now, like, who are the new clients who are really sticking around? Who are the people where they're— that attention's going to turn into something else or that attention was just, like, a quick fix and they're going away."

Amelia [00:11:35] And it's— it's been an interesting month of embracing that constriction, letting it happen, settling back into what's my quote unquote, "new normal," because I am— the business is bigger than it was in February. It's just not as big as it was in March for a minute when I was really trying to make that space. So, I think that's one of the places I currently am in my business.

Mary Grace [00:11:58] Yeah, I feel like you're in this really beautiful, like, refining process—

Amelia [00:12:01] Mm.

Mary Grace [00:12:02] Which is also—

Amelia [00:12:02] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:12:02] Something that I feel like we cycle through like expansion, contraction, refining, making— you know— and I think that that's also a place to get really excited about where we get more precise with our work and— because like you said earlier, it is about us feeling good about the work we do. But also, I feel like the more precise we are with what we're doing and who we're doing it with, like the better it gets for everyone.

Amelia [00:12:24] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:12:25] I think that's a really fun— or to me, it looks like a really exciting space to be in.

Amelia [00:12:29] Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, on that note, it's related to cultivating a niche, but it's not the same thing. Like, my quote unquote, "niche," is not working with a specific person. It's, like, a specific type of relationship I want to be in with lots of different types of clients.

Mary Grace [00:12:50] Mm.

Amelia [00:12:50] And I think that that's something I've really been trying to feel into and understand. You know, as I go into the second year of my business, I don't even know anymore [laughs].

Mary Grace [00:12:59] Yeah, like what year— what decade is it [laughs]?

Amelia [00:13:01] I have no idea. But what I'm trying to say is that there's something about how we work together that's starting to feel— that feels like what I'm refining, even more than like who I work with or—

Mary Grace [00:13:16] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:13:16] What the goal is even. It's just, like, can we have a beautiful working relationship that feels reciprocal, that feels like we're collaborating, building something together, like you're getting the support you need, and I'm able to be fully resourced in offering that support. That's really where I'm like— mm— like the good stuff is— that's where I feel like I'm really getting into— also, like, the change work I want to do through my business—

Mary Grace [00:13:39] Mm.

Amelia [00:13:39] Is like in developing those processes and in changing how I work with other people and how we work together. Yeah, I feel like I've just stepped into a new layer of, like, now I really get to go to work in a certain way.

Mary Grace [00:13:52] Yeah, I like that you're differentiating that between us— like the niche of the customer avatar, for instance, because I feel similarly like it's more of the process that I'm interested in and I think a lot of people can jump into that specific pot with me and a lot of people do—

Amelia [00:14:08] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:14:08] Which I personally really love and I get excited by that because being focused on the process can yield all sorts of different kinds of inputs and outputs, which I think is also something that keeps people like us who are very creative people who like to, sort of, be involved in a lot of different kinds of conversations and things, it can keep us really interested in what we're doing—

Amelia [00:14:30] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:14:30] In a way that I think is really exciting and fulfilling. So—

Amelia [00:14:33] Yeah, and it goes back to that sort of, like, vending machine feeling, right? It's, like, I love to systematize a process, but I don't want to systematize it to death. Like, I don't want it to just feel like that I'm running people through my podcast factory and, like, we're not doing anything like beautiful and alive together. Like, the system's important, the process, having clear steps, and ways we work together are important, but I live for that magic of the co-creation—

Mary Grace [00:15:00] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:15:00] For all of the human elements that come in and make it weird and make it—

Mary Grace [00:15:04] Messy.

Amelia [00:15:05] Messy— yes— and make it messy like that— that's where it gets good. Otherwise, it's just boring. It's dead.

Mary Grace [00:15:11] I think so, too. And I think that kind of touches on something that we both wanted to bring to the conversation too, is just talking about like— there is sort of a nuance of having a creator-led business there. And I think— while I think there's a lot of things that contribute to that nuance, I think that interest in the messy process or that sort of tolerance for being in the sandbox or I would also say a desire to return back to that frequently is more of a creator approach as opposed to someone who's sort of, like, packaging up a market niche and, like, you know, buttoning it up, zipping it up-type, solidifying it so it never changes and works forever and gets VC-funding. Like, you know, there's—

Amelia [00:15:47] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:15:47] I guess there's— that's a place in our world but I think people who are more creatively inclined are going to be want to return back to something that is more process fulfilling, I think.

Amelia [00:15:57] Yeah. So, I think that leads into, as you were saying, like this first thing we wanted to talk about today, which is this, sort of, conversation we've been having around creator-first businesses or creator-led businesses. And I want to open by maybe clarifying for myself what I mean when I say that maybe inviting you to do the same, which is for me, I think creator-led businesses at their heart are driven by the owner or founder or leader’s creative vision and, you know, more spiritually, like energetic life force. Like, there's a connection there. And I think that it's really exciting and beautiful and also presents some unique challenges. I think another analogy or way to talk about this is I hear people talk about being like artist businesses or, you know, I'm an— I'm an artist first and then I'm a business owner or, like, I'm a— a writer and I'm self-employed. But yeah, what is being a creator-first business mean to you lately?

Mary Grace [00:17:00] I feel like I don't know if the first part makes sense for me. I think, in my life, am I creator-first? 100%. Is that always the way that I'm able to show up in everything business related? Like, not really. And I think that is potentially, like, a unique challenge. You know, there's a way that trying to make money solely from one's creative artistic channels into the world has its own unique set of challenges.

Mary Grace [00:17:32] And I wouldn't say that that's necessarily what I'm doing. I do have that kind of practice in the world, but am I strictly trying to form a business around— which for me my primary medium being dance— not really because A— that's not going to happen [laughs]. For one, I remember just like with traveling people coming into Atlanta, and these are people who are currently MacArthur Genius fellows, right? And they're moving— they're like, "Oh, I can't pay my rent." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, maybe this isn't actually a working business model," which says less about the artist's value and more about the state of our culture, I think.

Amelia [00:18:10] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:18:10] So I think too, there's a way that in my life I think I'm creator-first, but I don't know if in my business I'm always like, "No, what I want creatively matters the most." I think—

Amelia [00:18:18] Mm.

Mary Grace [00:18:18] But I do think it is a dance. And I think when someone is a creator and showing up that way and trying to show up that way in their business, there are extra considerations that end up being on the table that probably aren't otherwise, whether it always gets chosen first or not I think is a different conversation, and that probably depends on the business itself. But I totally agree with all the things that you're saying.

Amelia [00:18:41] Yeah, I think that it's interesting to unpack together because I also would say I don't think I run a creator-first business. I think I'm a business owner first, and then all of my ways of being creative come after that. Business is a place where I get to be creative and I really enjoy that. And it's— I think that shines through in my work.

Amelia [00:19:01] But I encounter a lot of artists who are trying to make a living through their art, and in that, we live in this tension of, like, the purposes of art and the purposes of business. And I think that those realms have very different value systems. And what you're pointing to is like they put different things, quote unquote, "first."

Amelia [00:19:22] And, like, the foundations are different, the goals are different, the— the what we're valuing most is different and the way as we learn to intertwine them create challenges. I think of this Elizabeth Gilbert quote you sent me recently where in Big Magic, she says, "But to yell at your creativity is saying you must earn money for me is sort of like yelling at a cat. It has no idea what you're talking about and all you're doing is scaring it away because you're making really loud noises and your face looks weird when you do that." [Mary Grace laughs softly] Like, she's setting up this sort of tension, like creativity and, like, money and capitalism [chuckles softly] don't speak the same language. And when we bring them both together in business, like we're setting up certain tensions for ourselves that I think we have to, I guess, choose different ways to address. Or—

Mary Grace [00:20:12] Mmhm. I think there can be a tension when we show up in those ways that you're saying just because of the way that our economy works and the way that creativity as an essentially mystical practice works.

Amelia [00:20:22] Hmm.

Mary Grace [00:20:23] In that there can be a lie in the culture and that I think that we can often knowingly digest as creative people where it's like if you just hone your voice enough and get clear on your artwork in just the right way, just the right time, and stay true and be consistent about it, then it's going to magically work as a business. You'll magically make money around it and it will just work out. And I think that that is not true [laughs].

Amelia [00:20:48] Yeah.

Mary Grace [00:20:49] And so, for me, it's more like, "What do I need from life?" As opposed to what do I need from my business? My business cannot give me everything that I need. And it's not really fair for me to put all of my creative needs and expectations to be met through that. Just like it's not fair to do that to your partner, right? Like, all of my relational needs cannot be met through my spouse. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, just means that's not possible. And that's great.

Amelia [00:21:12] Can you tell us about last year when you kind of hit a point where you were like, "The relationship between my creativity and my business is not working." Like, how do you get there? How did you come through that?

Mary Grace [00:21:22] I think that for me, last summer, I was really hitting a wall in a lot of ways because I keep returning in certain— like in cycles I'm noticing with like reconciling my levels of output with the level of inspiration and actual true creativity that I'm able to do. And I think a unique friction that we find with creator-led businesses is that we also want things, even if they're not like our pure, unfiltered, I don't need to digest the world from you, this is my pure art magic self, we still want it to be related to that voice in some way.

Amelia [00:21:58] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:21:59] And when we start to have zero resonance between those things and what we're making for our business, we feel an extra friction in a way that someone who quote, "just does marketing" is not going to feel—

Amelia [00:22:09] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:22:09] And be like, "Oh, this is the most popular thing in the world and I love it. And it's gets— owning so many hits." Like, someone who just does marketing is going to be thrilled with that. Someone who's a creator is going to be like, "Mm. That doesn't feel true to me though," and that's a friction that doesn't exist in other businesses. And I was just really feeling that. I was feeling really burned out by my podcast, just like— I think it had been how many years at that point where I had been putting out an episode every week nonstop, which is insane. Like, now that I think about it, I'm like, "That's ridiculous."

Amelia [00:22:33] I think you did three years without any break.

Mary Grace [00:22:35] Yeah that's—

Amelia [00:22:35] That's wild.

Mary Grace [00:22:36] Insan-o, now that I think about it, now I don't do that. And now I'm about to take another three-month long break for the summer because it felt so good to do last year. And it's just again, what you preach a lot through your business is the value of breaks and how it helps us to recalibrate and get back to what's true for us.

Mary Grace [00:22:53] So, I think taking a break was a big part of how I moved through that, letting some patterns and pressures fall off about how produc— how consistent or how productive I feel like I need to be. And I think it's a constant phase of what you described earlier of, like, also refining. Just towards the end of the year, I was refining, like, how I'm showing up for my clients, right?

Mary Grace [00:23:10] Like, do I want to be someone who people book one-off sessions with like whenever they want? And then, like, that doesn't quite feel rewarding for me. So, how do I, like, re-change how I interface with my customers and the kind of experience that people can come to me for? What feels really good? What gives me the amount of rest that I need?

Mary Grace [00:23:28] And I will say that building up this consulting part of my business and also, like, the construction parts of our ecosystem, I think thinking about our needs as an ecosystem as well is really helpful because I can get certain things from those that necessarily— I don't now have to put so much pressure on the more creative part of myself because for instance, for me in my pure art life where it's, like, I'm making dance, I'm out in the world, in that phase of my life, I actually don't want the pressure of it making money. The pressure for me is I want to be able to do whatever the fuck I want in a way that feels perfectly correct and right for whatever I'm making and if it were my business actually wouldn't be able to do that. And so, I'm not willing to put it in that kind of container. So, I think thinking of our needs and our feedbacks as an ecosystem as opposed to, like, a filter or a funnel can be really helpful.

Amelia [00:24:17] That was beautiful. I really like this metaphor— picture you're painting of, like, we can't put pressure on our art to meet all of our needs. We can't put pressure on our business to meet all of our needs here, more pressure on our partner to meet all of our needs. And so, we need to have ways of looking at different parts of our lives and understanding what we offer them and what they offer us. And, you know, this requires, I think, a really ongoing and nuanced conversation with yourself, requires really tuning in to what's feeling good, what's not feeling good. Being able to sit with all of the layers of nuance in our human experience [musical interlude begins to play].

Amelia [00:25:05] [Music fades as Amelia reads an announcement] Hi, friends, Amelia here, interrupting myself to tell you a little bit about this course, Living Systems, which you've heard Grace and I discuss in this episode. Living Systems is a series of cohort-based courses to set up your work and life like a garden, seasonally aligned, resilient as fuck, and bursting with life.

Amelia [00:25:22] It's for creatives, freelancers, and small business owners who want simple, sexy, and sensitive systems that support your most meaningful contributions, not busy work. Grace and I designed the course to teach cyclical rhythm designed for life and work, and we source the course material from our own research, creative work lives, and personal discoveries into how to live in alignment with our natural world and our embodied limits, while also honoring our interstellar capacities to vision, dream, and bring worlds to life.

Amelia [00:25:53] This spring— Spring 2023 we'll be teaching the Air Cohort, all about task management and the Power of the Small. This cohort is happening May 18th through June 8th, and if you're listening, when this episode comes out, we will be opening registration next week. For the Air Cohort, we are getting into the small things that make big things happen— tasks and task management. You may know them as all these scattered post-it notes, pieces of paper, backs of envelopes, and phone notes that tend to collect around your life, but maybe not coalesce into focus as much as you would like.

Amelia [00:26:26] So in this cohort, we'll explore how to break down your big, dreamy, gorgeous projects into bite-sized tasks that bring your visions closer to manifestation. And by the end of this course, you'll be able to create and maintain a current master task lists and manage those tasks in a way that is effective for you. We'll be talking about a variety of task management frameworks and helping you design something that is suited to your life, your limits, and your most expansive self.

Amelia [00:26:54] We will also be talking all about content. So, by the end of this cohort, you will be able to identify your core marketing channels, manage, organize, and streamline your content creations and experience much more integration between your tasks, your content, and your big picture plans and projects for your work and life. Air Cohort includes four 75-minute live classes with me and Grace. They happen on Thursday afternoons and four 60-minute co-working and accountability sessions that will be scheduled based on everyone's availability.

Amelia [00:27:27] We also offer gorgeous Notion templates. This is definitely a class for Notion lovers out there, but you do not have to use Notion to make the most of what we'll share and teach. And you'll also get access to our collaborative and nurturing online community for the duration of our live time together. If you want to feel clearer, more supported, and more integrated in your day-to-day work, this is a course for you.

Amelia [00:27:51] Head to the show notes for the link to learn more and make sure that you sign up to join our Living Systems email list so that you know as soon as registration opens, even if this cohort isn't for you, we're offering two more later in the year. So, get on the list so you can learn more about those as they're happening. I hope that you're enjoying this conversation Grace and I are having about creativity, constraints, and content. Let's get back to it.

Amelia [00:28:16] I think something else, just to go back to the very first thing you said— the way the myth of the meritocracy shows up in art practice and in being an artist that if you just keep going deeper and deeper and deeper into yourself and getting clearer and clearer and clearer on what you're making and what you're meant to make, then you will find financial success in the art world.

Amelia [00:28:36] I think it's just a form of the myth of meritocracy, which is that, like, if you just work hard enough, good enough, then you'll get what you quote unquote, "deserve/desire." And I think that— that for me, when I set up the sort of tension, it's like in the art world, I think I hear people, I hear beautiful, wonderful artists I admire telling folks like, "I just get so clear on what I'm meant to create, I go into my process, I do what I think, and then I offer it to you. And sometimes lots of people want it."

Amelia [00:29:01] And then in the business world, I go into, like, tech news and they're like, "We did 800 client interviews and we figured out exactly what their problem was. And we went straight to that and came up with the ultimate solution and sold everybody that and made $1,000,000."

Amelia [00:29:16] And I think it's just, like, neither one works [laughs wearily]. Like, it's not all about you and it's not all about the other people. But like, that's what I love about business. It's this constant dance of, like, that relationship between what I need and what the people I want to work with need and how do we both get our needs met. And I think that this circles back even to the very opening of our conversation around constraints and saying no.

Amelia [00:29:41] Like, sometimes people are going to tell you they need stuff that you're just not going to give them [chuckles], and that's okay.

Mary Grace [00:29:47] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:29:47] And that doesn't mean they can't still be your client. So, let's kind of open up into the next part of this chat around like constraints, saying no, and doing less even when people are asking for more. How's that been coming up in your— your business lately?

Mary Grace [00:30:05] I think something that's coming up in my work and then also just piggybacking on something you just said is getting clear on who's it for, right?

Amelia [00:30:14] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:30:14] Like, sometimes I'm making a product or a service, it's for me and I know it's for me. [Amelia chuckles] You know, I'm doing it because I want to do it. It's an experiment that I want to do and I think there's some other people that don't get on board. Maybe not, I don't know. But I'm doing it for me. And everything is like that— it's the same thing when I'm doing, you know, some sort of, you know, devotional practice, you know. And I think that can get really convoluted in our age of performance for— is like, am I doing this for Instagram or I doing this not.

Mary Grace [00:30:40] Like, am I totally okay if no one sees this and, like, what kind of— I think having that filter of who it's for can be a really helpful one and maybe potentially only the clar— the only clarity [laughs] we need. [Amelia chuckles] But yeah, I think— and it's something that— 'cause talking about constraints and the constrain of who's it for, but even how much time we have, you know, in our first cohort of Living Systems, like we were really dealing with the Earth element a lot, which is all about perceiving your limits honestly and getting okay with them and then working within them so that we can actually, like, do what we can actually do instead of dreaming about what we could do if we were someone else or if we had no limits at all [laughs], which is something that I think we can do a lot of when we are very creative people or very visionary people.

Mary Grace [00:31:23] It's very easy for us to see the possible world, which I think is beautiful and needed, but I think that's not so helpful if we're also not able to respect, get excited about, and work within our actual constraints. And I think something that came up in something that I was facilitating right before this call where they were like, "Well, how do I deal with the fact that I'm never going to be, you know, I have this ambition to be as creative as this person here and how do I deal with that gap?"

Mary Grace [00:31:51] And to me, that doesn't matter so much. Like, we all have limitations. We're all going to die without doing it all. And the sooner we get okay with that, the better our life's going to get, right? The more clear we're going to get, the more clear our frequency, the more precise our work and like what we're about going to get because we've reconciled and we're super okay with the fact that, like, I don't have all the time in the world like this, to get this done or to do this so what actually am I going to spend my precious life on or my precious energy on?

Mary Grace [00:32:21] So, I think the connection between— we think a lot about, like, freedom and liberation and all this is having like no constraints. And when I can do whatever I want, my business is working, when I'm so free and I can work from Costa Rica and I have no time constraints and no meetings, I don't actually have to work anymore, I just mysteriously make all this money from this like great funnel that, like, Facebook brought in to this thing that I never have to work on or refine and like— but that's, like, not real, [Amelia and Mary Grace laugh] right? That's not real.

Mary Grace [00:32:46] And that's, like, structure and limitations are how we get liberation as humans who are going to die, who have a finite relationship with embodiment and time and body and age. An analogy I'm working with a lot that I've been writing about a lot through creativity and grief and all of that is this idea of a cup, right, like, we think our culture is conditioned us to think of abundance as just more and like anything that's more is abundance or is freedom and— but it's actually like, what if abundance is more about fullness?

Mary Grace [00:33:19] So, if the cup is always growing, it's never going to be full and we're never going to get that satisfaction. And constraints and the limitations of like the cup is actually this big. This is how much time I have. This is where I live. This is how much money I have. Getting okay with that is going to enable me to get excited about the fullness in my cup, which is abundance. So, I think those are some really tangible ways that I'm really integrating those into my life and yeah, getting excited about them honestly, getting excited about the smallness in my life, and freeing myself from the expectation that I have to do it all to like— or be visible for it all to have some like super great life because it's like I'm living for— like my life is about me. I'm not dying with accolades, right? Like no money— [Amelia laughs] that's not like, that's not going to carry me through and get me excited at the ends. But what is going to be my own satisfaction?

Amelia [00:34:08] Yeah, I think so many things coming up and what you just shared, like learning to embrace constraints, I think really is such an Earth lesson and something I shared with everyone in the Earth Cohort of Living Systems was how much my work has transformed when I stopped just wishing I was doing something else [laughs] or, like, my example is always, like, when I first started my business, I was like, "I'm going to work 12-hour weeks," and like, it doesn't work like [laughs]—

Mary Grace [00:34:35] Like, maybe sometimes you get a 12-hour week. But like—

Amelia [00:34:38] Yeah, but like, I work a 30-hour week, which is fine. And once I stopped hating that, once I stopped, like, shaming and judging myself because I was working more than 20 hours a week, which is an arbitrary number that I picked of how much I quote unquote, "should be working." Then it was fine. Now I just work my 30-hour week, everything gets done. I notice when I am working more than that, I celebrate when I'm working less than that, and I just move on because I have stopped, again, that point of, like, being upset that I am not getting the ideal thing and instead just living in my real life is such an Earth lesson.

Mary Grace [00:35:09] And to just get— like to know like you're not doing anything wrong when you're working 30 hours a week with an online-based business, you're not doing anything wrong when this client says no to you because they want it for this much and you can only do it for this much, you know? And I think, like, no doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong? The constraint doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. It means you're willfully, gleefully living within your limitations from which magic can then arise.

Amelia [00:35:32] Yeah. And then this Air lesson that you're bringing up, like the smallness, something we'll be unpacking together in the Air Cohort of Living Systems is, you know, the Adrian Maree Brown, "Small is all." And Adrian Maree Brown also has teachings on being satisfiable, like having that embodied connection with enoughness, a sense of constraint.

Amelia [00:35:52] I think that enough is such a important constraint and a really challenging one to cultivate in our society, to learn to get in touch with what is enough or what feels like enough. This is something I've really been in the dance of speaking back to, like, the expansion/contraction moment I've been in, like recognizing that expansion as a moment of too-much-ness, but also like, you know, now maybe enough is more than it used to be before, but it's not as much as the most I've ever had. Like, how to live in that space is such an Air lesson and something I'm really excited to spend, you know, four weeks unpacking.

Amelia [00:36:34] I think an area where this comes up a lot, that we will be talking about in the Air Cohort of Living Systems is content. There are so [laughs]—

Mary Grace [00:36:45] I know.

Amelia [00:36:47] You are one of the people that I shouted out as inspiring my "Ten Things I Hate about Content Marketing," episode. From our many conversations about how much we hate making content and how we have reworked our businesses or certain areas of our businesses around not needing content. Why is structure and constraint so important for the content world?

Mary Grace [00:37:14] [Deep breath] I think there's a— I have a couple of things coming to mind. One, it's that not confusing content that you're making for a certain goal or priority in your business with your art practice because they're probably not the same thing and getting really okay with that.

Amelia [00:37:33] Woof.

Mary Grace [00:37:34] Yeah—

Amelia [00:37:34] Some people that seems gonna be, like, a knife to the heart for some folks—

Mary Grace [00:37:36] Sorry.

Amelia [00:37:36] I think [laughs heartily]. It needs to be said, but it's a— it's a tough lesson.

Mary Grace [00:37:40] And I say that as someone who— I am pretty indulgent in— a lot of the content that I make is either in my podcast or in my emails and I would say that I'm pretty indulgent in those things. And I have curated an audience that is like— they're like, "I literally save your emails until like the next day where I know I can sit down with a cup of tea." You know, I'm not following the, like, formula of like you need a header that does this, and you need to put up the cute little gif here that points— but like I don't follow any of those rules. I don't keep it to, like, no scroll emails. I don't do any of that shit.

Mary Grace [00:38:12] What are the rules that are just made up because people said this is how content marketing works?

Amelia [00:38:16] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:38:16] And what are the things that you actually need to make in order to run your business? Because those are probably different things and I'm finding for me that they are very different things. They were like, "This is how you have to launch something, you have to write this many emails, this is the formula, and this is your—"

Amelia [00:38:28] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:38:29] "Three-month runway." I mean, I launched something last month where I was like, "What's keeping me from really pulling the trigger on this? It's like, I don't want to write a sales page. I don't want to write whole novel just to get people to buy a thing." And I didn't and I sold it and it's fine. So, I think too, like, the constraint too— like what are our own constraints—

Amelia [00:38:48] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:38:48] Which may not necessarily be the constraints of content marketing. And again, where can I sandbox and workshop those things—

Amelia [00:38:55] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:38:55] But then, also acknowledging if the end goal is to just nurture your audience, you can be more playful with it. If the end goal is I have to make X amount of dollars this month and this email is a vehicle for that, how can we meet in the middle? How can I get that bridge to match? And those are different experiments. They're all experiments.

Amelia [00:39:12] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:39:13] I think too, there's this— we were talking earlier—- another lie is that like [Amelia chuckles], well, if you're just— I think honesty is a way of thinking about that. Like, do I really need to send three emails a week? Do— why do I think that? Is that actually true? Do I really need to put out a podcast every week, all the time, forever, till I die? Is that actually true? Where did that idea come from? Do all of my clients actually come from social media and I have to post every day? Is that really true? Why do I think that?

Mary Grace [00:39:39] And I think, you know, we want the constraints that we are operating within. We want to be really conscious of what those are and not just like, "Well, so-and-so said, I have to do this and this is what they do and it works for them." Like, that's a more child approach to a constraint where someone's giving us the rules and we're just being obedient to them.

Mary Grace [00:39:57] Whereas an adult who is like operating within constraints that they are aware of, they're conscious around, and they're consciously building, that's a totally different relationship. And I think there's a lot of ways, especially with online business, that we're told this is how you have to do it, and then we just follow those rules and then, "Well, why isn't it working? I was being a good little girl, you know, following all the rules."

Mary Grace [00:40:18] And it's more about, like, getting to be the mature adult where, like, "I tried that. It didn't work for me. I don't like it. I can either pay someone to do it or I can find a different way," which means I'm going to mess up, like, 12 times and then maybe land on something that works now and then I may have to change it the next year.

Amelia [00:40:33] I definitely think that, like, good little girl mentality goes back to the myth of the meritocracy that I was talking about earlier. It goes back to these desires that I think are ingrained in us that we just want to be told what to do so we can do it and get a gold star. We get so disciplined into that through school. And I think that something I've been coming to as a business owner is that the business owners that I see over time who, like, stick it out and make it through are the ones who are able to relinquish that desire to be told what to do and instead to relish in the experimentation and the challenge. And it's like, you know, that double edge of freedom of, like, in your business, you going to do whatever you want, but you're also radically responsible for all of your choices [laughs]—

Mary Grace [00:41:23] Totally.

Amelia [00:41:23] And they're going to show up in your bank account [continues to laugh].

Mary Grace [00:41:25] Yes, they are.

Amelia [00:41:26] Like, there's also going to be this quantifiable metric you could use called money that'll tell you how quote unquote, "good or bad," things are going. Money doesn't have to be the only metric, but I think it's the one we most often use in business. And so, I think that, again, like, we have to let go of that desire like— and I get it, I have that feeling too. I'm like, "I just want someone to tell me what to do that'll make this work."

Amelia [00:41:44] Like, it comes through in the burnout and the exhaustion, when we're tired, when things are just not going well. But if we don't learn to shake that off, like eventually, if you don't find pleasure in going after the challenge, taking on the experiment, iterating over and over, refining, then eventually you just won't like being in business because as soon as you figure one thing out, it shifts, it changes, what your clients want change.

Mary Grace [00:42:09] And you change, like what you want—

Amelia [00:42:11] Yeah.

Mary Grace [00:42:12] Changes too. I think you're speaking to something really powerful because I think there's also a place where, like, times are, especially for solopreneurs, like, bringing other people's voices into your business, other people's expertise. Like, I pay people to do things that I'm not good at—

Amelia [00:42:23] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:42:23] And that's great and that's beautiful and needed. And I think with the money, like we're really wrestling with the material in a way that's really direct when we're responsible for the checks that come into our bank account, right? It's a different level of contending with what is material, with contending with survival. I mean, contending with our own creative abilities. Like there's a whole other layer that we may be moving with and moving through when we're running a business. And I wouldn't—

Amelia [00:42:51] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:42:51] Say that that's for everybody, and that doesn't make anyone better or worse, but I think that's a layer to really acknowledge you're saying.

Amelia [00:42:58] And I think that because of that layer, something I'm always saying on this podcast is that, like, as a result, as business owners, we can't do everything. We have limited time and energy and I think that this is where content comes back and where these lessons of Air return, like, because we have limited energy, we want and need to be precise with how we use it in our businesses.

Amelia [00:43:23] And I just think content marketing is often a waste of time for people who have small audiences, which frankly is a lot of folks who listen to this show. I would consider myself, until recently, someone who had a small audience. Maybe I have a mid-size audience now. I don't really understand. Is 1000 email subscribers a mid-sized audience? Who knows?

Amelia [00:43:44] [Laughs heartily] But I just think that getting back to some of what you were saying before about content specifically and about choosing how to market specifically, like content marketing was a strategy for people with a large audience and often works— you have a bunch of people and you want to sell them something that's, like, a lower cost recurring model. It comes out of a tech model.

Amelia [00:44:04] And so, you use content marketing to convert large numbers of people from your big audience into low-cost offers. But those of us who are just starting out and have small audiences and want our business to support us, like, that's just not a model for us.

Mary Grace [00:44:20] Mm.

Amelia [00:44:20] There's just— it's not, but yet we see it in online business so much that we just get sucked in and think it's the way to do things when in fact we're much better served by the things you're mentioning, like the cultivating a really clear sense of who your work is for, the direct sales.

Amelia [00:44:36] There's going to be an Off the Grid episode soon about relationship marketing, like that all works better when you're working with a smaller audience and your offerings need to be more expensive. Like, I'll also say that too. They just do, if you have fewer people to sell them to and you want to support yourself.

Mary Grace [00:44:50] Totally. Yeah, I think so too. And I think there's a lot, especially in, like, the early realms of, like, content marketing. There was a lot of this whole like, well, you just like make a course, then you set it and forget it, and then you, like, make content that flows people to the ad that's on Facebook, that goes to the lead magnet, that goes to the, like, one year's worth of emails that goes into this— and it's sort of this like set it and forget it, like, funnel that has like 18 million octopus branches like moving around like—

Amelia [00:45:15] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:45:15] And I just think that A— that's way more than most people have the capacity for unless they have a whole team to do that.

Mary Grace [00:45:20] B— I have heard a lot of people sharing lately that that is starting to not work for them because people know how the Internet works now. And I think people are really— they want something that's alive. And I think when we're making something, we want it to be alive too, and if everything we make is so, like, frozen and heavy and, like, requires 18 tentacles moving around in order to, like, harness it together, like we're not really able to change that much.

Mary Grace [00:45:43] And I think especially speaking of Air, it's something that changes constantly. So, I think giving ourselves permission to, like, experiment with things that are a lighter lift, more agile, give us more flexibility. Changing our mind— be like, "Oops. That didn't work. Now I'm going to do it this way," and be— like, it's not because you spent like, "Well, I spent 18 hours making this course and then, like, setting up this whole funnel announcement and now it's not working, it's going to cost me $500 to redo this thing. And all these emails that I made."

Mary Grace [00:46:06] Like, how can you be in service to the moment and also—

Amelia [00:46:10] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:46:10] Maybe in the next moment and then you can reevaluate what that moment's about? And I think there's something more alive about it—

Amelia [00:46:15] Mmhm.

Mary Grace [00:46:15] And the image that was coming to mind was one of a house. So, you gotta, like, open up the windows, let the air blow in so that is just like, "Ahh, feels like there's some life in here," and yeah, some pollen’s going to come in and some bugs and, like, maybe a bird but that's— that's life and that's good. Like, we want to be able to move— move it through.

Amelia [00:46:31] Yeah. I think your point about the sort of set and forget it model fading [chuckles]— I definitely think it's— it's on the downslope of its popularity because I think that we are all craving connection and the set it and forget it model what it promises us is this sort of like— it's like if you figure it out good enough once, you'll never have to figure it out again. And it's coming back to that same myth of the meritocracy, which I guess I'm going to say a million times this episode, that same like, "Oh, if I just am a good girl, I'm good enough, I'll be set forever." Or this sort of like—

Mary Grace [00:47:08] If I just get the right answer—

Amelia [00:47:10] Then I've got it. And I figured it out like— but that doesn't— I just don't think that's working as well as it used to. And with both of us as astrologers, you know, that could be, like, Saturn is out of Aquarius, it's in Pisces [chuckles], like that sort of stuff where, you know, with Saturn you can just be like, "Here it is. The foundation is set. It's here forever."

Amelia [00:47:29] Like, I think we're kind of over that moment and I think that we're in a new place where a lot is in flux and shifting. And as a result, like, I agree with you, I'm seeing a lot of folks who are like, "This course that I built and I sold it four times and it did great. Now, this fifth time it's not working." And I think all entrepreneurs face that at some point, like you build a system and you run it multiple times and it works and it works and it works and then it doesn't. And that can be devastating. But it's also— there just the reality of business and the reality of how things change and evolve. And we have to be willing to change and evolve with our community, with our clients, with our offerings, with ourselves.

Mary Grace [00:48:09] Yeah, 100%. Agile. Go with the flow.

Amelia [00:48:14] Yeah. And again, that takes us back to creator-led businesses, right? That's one of the gifts of being a creator-led businesses. There is a flow there, right? [Chuckles] When you're a creator-led business, you can follow your flow. You have, hopefully, like, ways to tap into your creative practice, what comes next for you, what you want to do, what you want to build, what you want to offer to people.

Amelia [00:48:35] And when things aren't working, you can return to that and get, you know, nourished by your own creativity. I'm thinking now of what you said before, like, some offerings I make just for me, and other offerings are more of a blend of like, here's a really smart way that I can bring something I do into the world and it will support people and I will get fulfilled in certain other ways, right?

Amelia [00:48:55] For myself, I think, you know, Softer Sounds and our podcast editing offerings serve my bank account and they serve my desire for [chuckles]— like to be financially resourced and also to hire people and pay other people and support people in a way that, frankly, podcasters really need that support. It's so crucial.

Amelia [00:49:14] But Off the Grid is where I get to be a little more of, like, a dilettante and myself and shiny and, like, step up to the mic instead of being, like, in the, you know, producer room of the studio. So, I think that as creator-led businesses or as a creator leading a business or as creators working with our practice to make money and also trying to be self-employed in other ways. We have to learn, like, what are the different aspects that feed us here, and how do all those interplay, how do we bring other people into the mix if we want to? Such that we just feel fulfilled and nourished in our work? That's what I want at the end of the day. I want my business to be a place I go to have fun. I want to feel fulfilled energetically, financially, spiritually, by the way I spend most of my time, which is working, and then I want to, like, fuck off and do whatever else I do that's not work [laughs heartily].

Mary Grace [00:50:09] Yeah. Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. You're not doing business wrong if you're not like on 24/7 vacation while the machine runs itself. And I think, like, as a creator, I am just getting more interested in things that can feel lightweight. Like, what's something that I can put out— because I think people, they also don't want things that are heavy. I think there's a way that, in the past, we value things by how much content is involved. It's like, "You're getting this course with 18 hours of content and that's why it's $5,000." I'm like, "Cool. It might be super valuable, but like, do people have the capacity for 18 hours of content plus homework?" Like, not really. Like, I certainly don't. So, why are we using content as a metric for value? Like, to me, the world doesn't need more content.

Amelia [00:50:47] Yeah.

Mary Grace [00:50:48] Like, AI can make content now. So, like, does content in and of itself have value? No, I don't think so. So, like, what is it that you're making and why are you putting it out in the world and what do people actually need? And I think that kind of takes us into more of like— you know, we're talking about with our Air Cohort, like, content and, like, tasks and all these small little bits that are, like, really a big part of where we meet our daily-ness with our work and getting really clear on, like, how those can function best, getting clear on what we're doing it, and how we're doing it, and who we're doing it for, because otherwise that busyness and that bulk gets conflated with doing a good job and that's not really true.

Amelia [00:51:24] [Groans] I just like— snaps to that [laughs heartily]. So, speaking of our Air Cohort of Living Systems, for folks who enjoy this conversation [laughs], Living Systems is a lot of Grace and I unpacking conversations like this, but with presentations and a little more organization and a lot more you getting to ask questions and fill in the gaps of how this fits into your own work.

Amelia [00:51:48] So, in our Air Cohort, which starts in May, we’ll be unpacking the Power of the Small, which we've talked about today. We'll be talking about different strategies to approach task management so you can figure out how you want to engage with everything you need to do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

Amelia [00:52:06] We'll have a week on mapping your marketing ecosystem, which I think will be especially fun for Off the Grid folks thinking about what are all of the channels that you're sharing your work with and how can you be more than a content-making machine? Because we're not content-making machines, but we do have to do marketing. So, what does that mean? We'll unpack that together and then we'll wrap up with a week on the flow of your week and talking about how do we fit our tasks and our sharing and all of this together in the rhythm of a week, because the workweek is still the way most of us organize our work [laughs], at least that's how I do.

Amelia [00:52:41] So, if you want to join us or you're interested in that, if you'd like to learn more about that, there's a link in the show notes to get on the mailing list— or the— or the wait list for Living Systems and registration will open if you're listening live, it'll open next week. If you're listening in the future, it opens May 1st, 2023, and it'll be open, I think, for two weeks and then we'll close and get started.

Amelia [00:53:03] So, if you're listening in the future and that's already past, go ahead and jump on the mailing list/waitlist regardless because we have more cohorts coming up this year, we'll have more information coming out about Living Systems.

Amelia [00:53:15] [Deep breath] If you want to hang out with us, but you're not ready for the course, you can come to Notion Nerd Night, which is our free monthly Notion hang or hang for Notion nerds. Notion is our favorite systems tool for organizing our work and lives and clients and everything else we do [laughs heartily]. I'll put that link in the show notes as well. What else, Grace? What am I missing? Or what do you want to say to the people about joining us in Living Systems?

Mary Grace [00:53:38] Yeah, I think it's going to be really helpful because like I said earlier, it's where a lot of us meet our work. It's where we feel the most frustration with our work a lot of the time is in that daily-ness. I mean, where it can feel, sort of, hard to assess whether we're pointing north or not. And I think the more we can get clear on what's working well for us, how to manage our tasks, how to get clear about our content, makes us—

Mary Grace [00:53:58] A— happier with our constraints and feeling better about the work that we're doing. And also, just assessing that, like, what we're doing is getting us the kind of results in garden that we're are trying to grow. The air is blowing through the house, so to speak.

Amelia [00:54:12] [Laughs] Yeah, windows open. Come open the windows with us this spring— unless you live in my house. I live in a 100-year-old house where the windows don't open, but that's my own personal problem [laughs heartily].

Amelia [00:54:23] Well, thank you, listeners, for being here. Thank you, Grace, for joining me in the conversation, or if you're listening on the home—body feed, for me joining Grace in this conversation [laughs]. It's been a joy and just come [outro music begins to play] hang with us in Living Systems. Like, it's just going to be great and it's going to transform your work. All right. Bye, friends. We'll see you next time.

Mary Grace [00:54:42] Bye!

Amelia [00:54:52] Thanks for listening to Off the Grid. Find links and resources in the show notes and don't forget to grab your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig. That's softersounds dot studio slash b-y-e-i-g.

Amelia [00:55:08] This podcast is a Softer Sounds production. Our music is by Purple Planet and our logo is by n'atelier Studio. If you'd like to make a podcast of your own, we'd love to help.

Amelia [00:55:19] Find more about our services at softersounds.studio. Until next time, we'll see you Off the Grid [music fades out].