🛍 Can Retail Leave Social Media? — Advice for Product-Makers & Shop-Owners with Janine Mulone

Amelia [00:00:02] [Music begins to play, overlapping with introduction to the episode] Welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast for small business owners who want to leave social media without losing all their clients. I'm Amelia Hruby, writer, speaker, and founder of Softer Sounds podcast studio.

Amelia [00:00:14] On this show, I share stories, strategies, and experiments for growing your business with radical generosity and energetic sovereignty. Download your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig and join us as we do it all Off the Grid [music jams and fades out].

Amelia [00:00:38] Hi friends, welcome or welcome back to Off the Grid, your favorite podcast about leaving social media without losing all your clients or in today's episode, a podcast about maybe you kind of sort of leaving social media and still having lots of customers because today, at long last, my friends, we are talking about retail.

Amelia [00:00:59] This has been a much-requested episode from all of our shop owners and physical product makers out there. And so, I have invited my favorite retail expert, specialist, consultant, creator, all of the things— who's going to help us make sense of the social media landscape for indie retail businesses.

Amelia [00:01:17] Before you get to know her, you know that I want to tell you about the Leaving Social Media Toolkit. This is our free resource that includes a five-step plan to leave any social platform. My list of 100 Ways to Share Your Work Off Social Media and a super cool database to organize creative marketing experiments. You can get that at the link in the show notes or at softersounds.studio/byeig. That's b-y-e-i-g. Go grab it. It's completely free. And it's also the only way to get on the list of super cool emails I send every week telling you all about the podcast [chuckles]. So, go grab it at the link in the show notes and I think that's all I have to say before I introduce our guest. So, let me get to it.

Amelia [00:02:00] Janine Mulone is an indie retail advisor, the founder of Feel Good Retail, and the host of Retail For The Rest Of Us. She has spent the last decade helping independent product-based businesses grow by prioritizing customer experience and data-driven strategy. She doesn't think you have to burn out or sell out to succeed. She believes your shop can and should uphold your values. Janine is a Softer Sounds client, a friend, and one of my favorite people to get really goofy with. So, you're in for a fun episode today, friends. Welcome, Janine. I'm so glad you're here.

Janine [00:02:35] [Deep breath] Thanks so much for having me. I thought for a second about, like, how serious could I say hello [Amelia laughs heartily] just because of that. But—

Amelia [00:02:44] Like, [in a deep voice] hello.

Janine [00:02:45] [Says in a deep voice] Hi [Amelia laughs heartily and Janine joins]. I am so excited to chat. I feel like we have talked about this topic offline. I've been thinking about it for a long time. It's a question I get a lot. So— a big one.

Amelia [00:02:57] It is a big one and I'm so excited to have you because as long-time listeners or anyone who knows me will know, I run a service-based business. And the realities of running a service-based business where you only need, you know, a few or a dozen or a few dozen customers or clients is just such a different thing than retail, where you probably need a lot more people than that buying your stuff. And as a result, your relationship to social media is really different. So, let's— let's dive in. Let's talk about retail and social media.

Janine [00:03:27] Let's!

Amelia [00:03:27] So, I'm just going to start with a super-duper ginormous question [laughs heartily], which is from your vantage point, I mean, you've had a decade-long career in retail. So, how have you seen— like what role has social media played over that time and how has it changed since you've been in retail?

Janine [00:03:46] So much. I mean, I think even in the last, like, six months, it feels like it's changed—

Amelia [00:03:50] Mm.

Janine [00:03:50] So much. So, to think about all the jobs I had, you know, not as a consultant or an entrepreneur, but literal, like, management and sales—

Amelia [00:04:01] Mmhm.

Janine [00:04:02] Jobs at independent retailers, like through college when Instagram was not around or it definitely wasn't being utilized for business. Sometimes I have to remind myself, like, businesses existed before the Internet.

Amelia [00:04:16] Yeah, like, there was retail before TikTok.

Janine [00:04:18] There was retail before TikTok. People have been buying things for a long, long time. And so, you know, I think that it has made entrepreneurship and selling seem a lot easier.

Amelia [00:04:35] Mmhm.

Janine [00:04:36] I would say than maybe it is. There's an interesting thing that happens, both as a tool of growing your business on social media, which is that, like, in some ways it democratized entrepreneurship and it made it so much more accessible because it's a free tool and so many people are on there of their own volition. And—

Amelia [00:04:57] Mmhm.

Janine [00:04:57] It just became like a really natural way for people to find products and connect with other people who, you know, hold similar values or, you know, find a product that maybe isn't available in your local area or whatever.

Amelia [00:05:08] Mmhm.

Janine [00:05:09] So, there's that piece of it. And there's also the piece where I think it has really changed our relationship with, like, making sales. And again, that—

Amelia [00:05:20] Mmhm.

Janine [00:05:20] Is product-based or not, but I would say in general for retailers, it's like there was no social media and then there was and I think so many folks, when I think back to like, let's even say 2014, 2015— at that point, Facebook had one option. It was a page that you could have that was like fans of your page.

Amelia [00:05:41] Mmhm.

Janine [00:05:42] And Instagram was just a feed.

Amelia [00:05:45] Mmhm.

Janine [00:05:45] There weren't stories, there weren't reels, there weren't all the other things that they've tried throughout the years— live video, those, like, guides that they tried for a little while. And so, not only was it simpler and more straightforward, but because of it being so new, there was kind of this, like, affirmation that at first it really did work. You know, I've talked to quite a few retailers who are like, "My business wouldn't exist if Instagram—"

Amelia [00:06:15] Mmhm.

Janine [00:06:16] "Hadn't, like, been so effective in those earlier days."

Amelia [00:06:18] Mmhm.

Janine [00:06:19] They were able to seriously grow their audience, get amazing reach, get, like, literally a free platform to grow their business, which is amazing.

Amelia [00:06:27] Yeah.

Janine [00:06:27] Those days are gone [laughs heartily].

Amelia [00:06:29] Yeah.

Janine [00:06:29] Which sucks. You know, like, I think in the last decade, it's really just been, like, kind of a downhill slope. It's, like, we're more distracted than ever, our audiences are more distracted than ever, or just, like, us as users because I think most people who use social media for their businesses also use it personally.

Amelia [00:06:51] Mmhm.

Janine [00:06:52] And I just think there have been diminishing returns if I was to use a [laughs] really business-y phrase.

Amelia [00:06:57] Yeah, I mean, I— kind of see the arc you're painting or, like, my take on it from outside of retail— so I'm happy to be corrected as something like, you know, a retail journey used to be about, like, you have a physical store and then maybe it gets e-commerce and then maybe you find ways to funnel people into the e-commerce or you have a product and you sell it to physical stores and then maybe you build also simultaneously your own e-commerce space to sell just your product.

Amelia [00:07:25] And I feel like with social media, you know, your shop might have a Facebook page, but you probably weren't like selling stuff on it. And then, you have an Instagram page where you're, like, advertising products, but sending people to your e-commerce store, your website, web shop, and now, you know, Instagram shopping emerges in 2017 and people are straight up just buying your stuff through social media apps.

Amelia [00:07:48] And then, we have TikTok, which now is like single-handedly turning these tiny product makers into seven-figure businesses and really making that, like, such a shiny American dream embedded in this, like, myth of the meritocracy. Like, if we just do all the right things, we will succeed [laughs wearily].

Amelia [00:08:11] When in fact, to wrap up where you wrapped up— like the platforms, like there's been journalists who've uncovered that, like TikTok, essentially gifts people followers. They will cherry pick people to get tens or hundreds of thousands of followers. Similarly, in the early Facebook days, I think about Tara McMullin of What Works wrote this great piece about how, like, Facebook paid people to be on their and to run Facebook groups and, like, really channel people into those spaces. Essentially the sort of narrative that, like, anyone can find that success. It's really just, like, some already kind of famous early adopters were given [laughs] big followings—

Janine [00:08:49] Right.

Amelia [00:08:49] And the rest of us are, like, scrambling, trying to quote unquote, "do the right things" to find that. And I'm hearing you say, like, that plays out in all businesses, including retail.

Janine [00:08:59] Absolutely. And I think the additional layer I would add on that I think comes up for a lot of product-based business owners is, yes, of course, seeing some of that viral success and like, you know, the TikToks of, like, people printing their order slips and it's just like—

Amelia [00:09:19] Mm.

Janine [00:09:19] A sea, you know, and like, of course, that's going to make you feel some type of way like you're—

Amelia [00:09:22] Mmhm.

Janine [00:09:22] A human being. And for me, as someone who's on the backend and does a lot. More like strategy and ops and kind of, like, system building. My first thought is like, how much do you have in inventory? Like, can you order more? Like, what is happening if you are a teeny, tiny, itty-bitty business and something like a video gets a million views? Like, there— I imagine— first of all, I've been inside some of those experiences too, and it hasn't been, like, the money pit [laughs]—

Amelia [00:09:55] Mmhm.

Janine [00:09:55] Or like, I guess—

Amelia [00:09:56] Yeah.

Janine [00:09:56] Money pit's, like, negative [Amelia laughs]. But, you know, it hasn't been, like, the Scrooge McDuck diving into a pool of coin.

Amelia [00:10:04] Yeah.

Janine [00:10:04] And I also think that, like, you just have to think about the sustainability of what that looks like. You can have a viral moment, but upkeeping that is a lot of work and you may not be prepared to be at that scale and to exactly what you're saying, I think it's really changed the trajectory for product-based business owners.

Janine [00:10:22] I think it's changed the way they think about the kinds of products that are being made and, like, paying attention to what is going viral and, like, maybe that's affecting, like, their own—

Amelia [00:10:34] Mmhm.

Janine [00:10:34] Creative practices. It's just changed the entire shape of what retail looks like. I mean, you know, we've seen huge periods of time of, like, brick and mortar is dead. Oh, there's a revival of, like, the American Mall and, like, all this kind of stuff. And I think now there is just a lot more competition for attention, period.

Amelia [00:10:58] Mmhm.

Janine [00:10:58] And there's also a lot more little shops and little product makers, which is amazing and exciting but presents different challenges than maybe the ones from like five, seven, ten years ago [sound blast transition].

Amelia [00:11:14] So, a few weeks ago I had Michelle Warner on the podcast to talk about relationship marketing—

Janine [00:11:22] Mm.

Amelia [00:11:22] And in that episode we talked a lot about, like, a spectrum of marketing strategies and, like, relationship marketing is at one end for service providers and traffic marketing is at the other end for, you know, retail companies, tech companies, things that need a lot more people through the literal or metaphorical doors. And so, when I think of retail, I think you need both.

Janine [00:11:43] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:11:43] You get to do it all. Gotta love that [laughs and Janine joins in]. And this is something I really hear you teach about a lot on your podcast, and I'd love to just, kind of, dive in together because I think that often retailers get told like it's all traffic, that's all that matters. And I hear you saying relationships are really important too and how do you actually build community around a shop or a product? How do you think about the difference between traffic and relationships or traffic and community for retail? And I guess really my question is like, do you think social media provides meaningful traffic these days? Or are you using different sorts of traffic strategies?

Janine [00:12:20] Yeah, I think you do have to do both, and I think they're related. You know—

Amelia [00:12:24] Yeah.

Janine [00:12:24] I think that the way that I think about retail and the way that I think about commerce is that I talk a lot about data a lot and I talk a lot about relationships, as you pointed out. And I think that the mistake we can make as business operators is treating them as completely different things, right? Because every single traffic, you know, like I guess I don't know what a singular traffic [Amelia laughs] word is, but like every— for every number of visits to your website, that is a person, that is their experience.

Janine [00:13:03] Obviously, there are different ways of measuring those things, but I think if you— if you make the mistake of being too cold and too analytical about like, "Okay, I need to drive 50 people into the store today or I need to drive a thousand people to my website this week." And not really think about, like, what motivates people to do that. What do I want them to do when they get there? What would make me leave a social media platform that I went to by choice because I'm waiting in line at a coffee shop and, like, actually exit out of that and go to an Etsy store or someone's website?

Janine [00:13:42] And I just think they have to be related because especially in retail and this is where I think a lot of the differentiation for me comes between service-based businesses is that retailers, especially independent retail, it needs retention and it needs community to survive. You will not be in business if you never have repeat customers, like, ever. You will not—

Amelia [00:14:09] Yeah.

Janine [00:14:10] Stay in business and you don't necessarily just want to be selling, like, one product unless it's something that people use and buy again. It's not saying you can't, but it'll be a harder road because you have to get so many new eyeballs, right? And that's where social media, the like, oh my god, exciting piece of social media comes in for a lot of retailers is like, I'm going to get discovered by people in a way that I've never been able to do on my own on these other kind of like organic channels. But if you are spending all this time on social media, driving traffic, starting these relationships, you know, there's, like, their first transaction and then you're not doing anything else—

Amelia [00:14:53] Mmhm.

Janine [00:14:53] You're really, like, wasting a lot of that energy.

Amelia [00:14:59] I think you're rightly pointing out the importance of retention as a strategy. And so often when I talk about marketing, I'll talk about—

Janine [00:15:06] Yes.

Amelia [00:15:06] Like growing your audience, nurturing your community, and then making the sale or some, you know, version of that trifecta and that nurturing piece— it's like everything in the relationship marketing conversation and it's, like, left out of the traffic marketing conversation.

Janine [00:15:22] Yes.

Amelia [00:15:22] But I hear you saying that, like, for independent retailers and product makers, that's everything.

Janine [00:15:29] Oh yes.

Amelia [00:15:29] This is something I say and service-based business all the time too is like, "It's so hard to get someone to make the first purchase and then it's so much easier for them to make— get them to make a second purchase or get them to be an ongoing customer or client, whether it's a service-based or product-based business."

Janine [00:15:47] Well, there's an exchange, right? Like, there's trust there because you've— there is a risk associated with making a first purchase—

Amelia [00:15:54] Mmhm.

Janine [00:15:55] Especially for a product, especially online. Like, I don't— I love this photo, but is it going to be the right size? Is it going to feel the way I wanted to feel? Is the color going to look like that? Is it going to fit in my home? Like— so there's this element of, like, unknown, and then if you're happy and it was everything you wanted and more, then you've built so much trust and it is easier to make that next step. Okay, I understand, like, what size I wear in this brand now, or I, like, love the way that these colors look. Or I just am excited to get this as a gift for all my girlfriends or whatever. And I agree with you. I think that there is a lot of energy and emphasis placed on the acquisition phase—

Amelia [00:16:35] Mmhm.

Janine [00:16:36] For everyone, and I think that's because there's not a lot of resources out there for small product-based businesses. And I don't think the exchange that we have on social media, while I— I think it can be meaningful and I don't want to discount if anyone has had real success on social media for their business or, you know, does still find value there. But I think that there is an expectation of being fed on social media as a user, like, you are being spoon-fed information and value because that is how the big company that owns that platform makes money.

Amelia [00:17:17] Mmhm.

Janine [00:17:17] And so, it doesn't always feel like an exchange from like you, the business owner, to the customer. And I'm kind of always saying to people like, "Think about, like, the next exchange and try to make it equitable." Like, okay, you— very basic example, which I know you talk about like lead magnets for service-based, but for retailers you often see like, "Sign up for our email list and you'll get, like, 15% off your for first purchase."

Janine [00:17:41] Great. They give you your email address, you give them the 15% off. Then, let's say they make their purchase. What's the next thing?

Amelia [00:17:49] Mmhm.

Janine [00:17:49] Like, are you able to offer some kind of, like, value in terms of— and I definitely don't mean a promotion, but like a welcome or, "Hey, like, let me know if you have any questions like you could reply to this email and get to me, like I'm the person who made that thing. Or if you have issues or here's some ideas on how to use that thing."

Janine [00:18:08] Like, I like that stuff existing in email better because it feels more personal and it doesn't feel as expected whereas, like, you go on social media to be entertained.

Amelia [00:18:19] Hmm.

Janine [00:18:19] And so, I think that changes the dynamic of a relationship between a business and a customer fundamentally from the get-go.

Amelia [00:18:27] Yeah, definitely. And I like this distinction between, like, being entertained and being nurtured to some degree. Like, and I think an email people call them nurture sequences, the emails that come after your— whether it's a lead magnet or a promotion. But it is— it's about relationship building as you're talking about and that's what brings back repeat clients and customers.

Amelia [00:18:52] I'm wondering— because I know you work with a lot of retail jobs and you do look at data and you are like in the backend of these things for many people, like in terms of traffic and of, like, bringing customers to e-commerce shops. How well is social media working— maybe we want to distinguish between Instagram or TikTok— like is it working for your indie retail clients? Are they making sales? Are people coming through those to their sites? Yes or no? Or maybe or both or neither [laughs]?

Janine [00:19:22] I mean, I don't want to be so definitive, but I would say, generally, no.

Amelia [00:19:26] Mmm.

Janine [00:19:26] Like, I don't think it's extremely effective in terms of direct linear selling and traffic, you know, like, recently I've been like, "What is the most obvious answer?" Like, if I'm looking at something where I'm like, "Okay, we're posting a ton. We're doing all these reels, we're posting a ton on Instagram, like why is our Instagram traffic number still so low?"

Janine [00:19:51] And I can come up with a million reasons around like, "Oh, we didn't have a strong call to action. We, you know, didn't— we left that link out of stories or we need to use this color, it doesn't contrast, or blah, blah, blah. The algorithms not showing my stuff to anyone." That's probably what I'm saying first, what everyone is saying first.

Amelia [00:20:09] Yeah.

Janine [00:20:10] But realistically, like, I opened my phone to just, like, be entertained or because it's a habit at this point to just, like, scroll through, like, I'm not super active. I'm a passenger [laughs and Amelia joins in]—

Amelia [00:20:26] Yeah.

Janine [00:20:27] When I'm scrolling, you know?

Amelia [00:20:26] Yeah.

Janine [00:20:27] And so, I think that, like, to expect that people will in droves, you know, in like every follower you have is going to show up on your website because you post on Instagram a couple of times a week. Like, I just don't think it's going to happen and I don't think it's ever been like that. You know what I mean?

Amelia [00:20:44] Yeah.

Janine [00:20:44] Even when impressions were higher because now it really does feel like posts on Instagram in particular get, like, absolutely no reach.

Amelia [00:20:54] Mmhm.

Janine [00:20:55] But the trick of it all, right, is that, like, mentally, then we're like, "Okay, well, how can I, like, get it to show it to more people?" And it's like—

Amelia [00:21:03] Yeah.

Janine [00:21:03] That is not in your control. You don't have control of that. So, anyways, I would say, like, no, it's not that effective. That being said, that's not the only role that social media can play for a product-based business. And so, to me, it's always about like getting really clear on your intention and, like, how you want to utilize this tool in your business because, like, your business isn't Instagram [laughs].

Amelia [00:21:33] Mmhm. Yeah.

Janine [00:21:33] It's not. And it maybe— you know, if anyone's listening and it's like— that is really what it is and it's just like, "DM me to buy this." Honestly, if that's working for you, amazing. And if it's not, there's alternatives. There's other shapes that your business can take [sound blast transition].

Amelia [00:21:48] You know, something that hasn't come up yet in this conversation that I'm curious about is that you have co-founded, co-started, co-created a product-based business—

Janine [00:21:59] Counter Magick.

Amelia [00:22:00] So, I'd love to maybe pause and, like, let you put that hat on a little bit. Like, how do you and Erica think about Counter Magick? Like, do you use social media for that product business? How are you marketing it? Like—

Janine [00:22:11] Yeah.

Amelia [00:22:12] How are you thinking of this?

Janine [00:22:14] It's tricky, right? Because it's like— I want to invest something because, again, trying to just observe my behavior or, like, the behavior of my friends— when I hear about a product or I hear about a store or whatever, I don't go to their website, I go to their Instagram because quickly I can visually get like, "Okay, what are they about? What kind of stuff do they sell? Whatever." So, I think it's an important channel to maintain and, like, have something. That being said, it is not a priority for us at this moment in time to be, like, really driving people there.

Amelia [00:22:58] Mmhm.

Janine [00:22:58] I do engage on DMs. I keep an eye on that. I keep an eye on wholesalers and I really utilize, like, email. And right now, because the business is so young and— it's a second or, like, I mean, I don't even know what number business it is for Erica [laughs and Amelia joins in] that it's not something where we're— we're relying on it for a different outcome.

Amelia [00:23:23] Mmhm.

Janine [00:23:23] You know, like, it's really an amazing product that I love so much and, like, I get so much out of it as, first of all, a user of the product as someone who was, like, involved from, like, inception and all of that. And also, I'm not relying on it for my full-time income. I am sure if I was—

Amelia [00:23:44] Mmhm.

Janine [00:23:44] I would be posting very regularly on Instagram, but I think I would have a diff— I would still have a different relationship—

Amelia [00:23:52] Yeah.

Janine [00:23:52] With it than I did maybe when I was, like, running social media for a product-based business before I started my business, you know?

Amelia [00:24:01] Yeah. Something that's coming up for me that we haven't mentioned yet is maybe, like, the role of the influencer for product-based businesses on social media. So, like—

Janine [00:24:13] Mmhm.

Amelia [00:24:13] Do you think of influencers as having a role in physical products and social media sales, or have you worked with them?

Janine [00:24:20] Yeah, I have a hard time with— working with influencers or content creators for small businesses because I think that it's just a monetary investment that a lot of them can't make.

Amelia [00:24:33] Mmhm.

Janine [00:24:33] And, like, one post from one influencer just, like, isn't going to do it. And, in fact, like, what I find value in when I am working with businesses that do have, like, a set-aside marketing budget is, like, the content that those people create, like the really nice photo on someone who's like not the owner of the business or a face that they see all the time or, like, the styling or, you know, the beautiful, like, shelf with your, like, gorgeous ceramic on it— like that tends to be more valuable than the actual, like, shout out itself.

Amelia [00:25:05] Mmhm.

Janine [00:25:06] Granted, like everything, I can also think of examples where it's like, "Oh, we got a random mention in this newsletter from, you know, this curator— this, like, influencer who, like, really curates products and we sold a bunch of stuff, which is awesome."

Janine [00:25:23] For me, it's really just about, like, collaboration in general. Like, I think of it feels good, it's going to be effective and maybe that's, like, either the most basic or, like, the ultimate, like, marketing advice [laughs and Amelia joins in]. Like— you know, like, I just find that product-based business owners make the mistake of just being like, "Well, I guess I need to gift a bunch of product to a bunch of influencers." And it's like— that is not the vibe.

Janine [00:25:51] Like [laughs], first of all, if that doesn't feel good to you, then don't do it. It's really not that effective. I don't find— I haven't found— I'm sure someone who's listening to this will be like, "I swear by it." And that's amazing. Like—

Amelia [00:26:05] Yeah.

Janine [00:26:05] If it's working for you, keep doing it. But I think, on the whole, it's a lot of outreach, it's still an investment, you know? That being said, like, I really am a big fan going back to the relationship marketing of, like, utilizing your current customers as some kind of, like, referral programs or, like, advocates for your brand because they are the ones who actually bought your product, like found it, discovered it, love it, came back for more. And so—

Amelia [00:26:33] Yeah.

Janine [00:26:33] How can we, like, bottle up their excitement and, like, incentivize them to share it? That completes, like, a really beautiful cycle to me of new customer to someone who becomes more of like a community member who leads in more customers. Like, I think is just nice.

Amelia [00:26:49] And this is where I think social media does shine in that moment of like—

Janine [00:26:54] Yes.

Amelia [00:26:54] When somebody bought something from you and they're excited and they share and tag you. Like, if you're not there to receive and share that tag, it's kind of— like the cycle dies there for— like the relationship kind of, like, falls off. Whereas I think— like for service-based businesses, it's like fewer relationships and you're keeping them going in email and other places. But social media, like people love to take photographs of their shit and put it on the Internet [laughs heartily]. So, it's like—

Janine [00:27:21] They do be lovin' it [laughs and Amelia joins in].

Amelia [00:27:23] I mean, I've done this a million times when I was still on Instagram, right? It's like that type of brand advocacy for products just shines so much there. And for shops too— like I used to love to be like, "Look at this new, like, candle I got from such and such place." Or, you know, we've mentioned Erica, who also runs HausWitch, here, like people love to tag HausWitch, right?

Janine [00:27:43] Yeah.

Amelia [00:27:43] Adore it— and it wouldn't go as far if HausWitch wasn't present to, like, respond and thank people for coming in and, like, I—

Janine [00:27:50] Yes.

Amelia [00:27:51] Do think this is where you— social media for retail really shines is in, like, that brand advocacy and nurturing brand advocacy, whether you're a shop or a product.

Janine [00:28:01] Yes. 1,000%. And I think the other piece of that that is kind of funny is that, like, a lot of folks will ask, you know, like, "How do I get more photos from my customers? You know, like I want to use their photos on— on my feed or whatever." And I'm like, "The best way to get more is to just, like, show what you've got already."

Amelia [00:28:20] Mmhm.

Janine [00:28:20] You know, like, if you notice that a shop is reposting every time someone tags them in a story, then the next time you buy something there, like, you're going to do a cute little photo. And even if you're not putting it on social media, I'll be like in Whole Foods and send a picture of, like, the new special fizzy drink that I got to my friends and be like, "Oh my god, I just got this, it's so good, you have to get it." And like—

Amelia [00:28:42] [Laughs] Or you'll be like, "Oh my god, I just got this. I spent $9 and it sucked. Never buy it [laughs]."

Janine [00:28:47] Literally. If people have a good time, they're used to sharing on social media as personal users, a lot of them.

Amelia [00:28:55] Yeah.

Janine [00:28:55] And even if it's not everyone who comes to your shop or who buys your products, it's like still a decent amount of them, I would imagine. And so, agreed. It's like if you aren't there to be like double tapping for a little heart and like, "Thanks for coming in," or answering questions, like, it does get tricky, but in that way what we're describing is a totally different tool and use of that tool than posting, like, five reels a week and seven feed posts and going on stories every day and whatever, which again is totally your prerogative but, you know, I think folks think of social media— a lot of product-based business owners, like, there is a lot of bitterness—

Amelia [00:29:39] Mm.

Janine [00:29:40] Towards these platforms.

Amelia [00:29:40] Mmhm.

Janine [00:29:41] Like, I would find it difficult to think of a situation that I have talked to a retailer or a product-based business owner in the last 18 months and haven't had to talk about Instagram at some point in it.

Amelia [00:29:54] Mmhm.

Janine [00:29:54] And I think that there's an energy around, like, it's a necessary evil, which I hate as a concept in general, but also, it's like, okay, well, when you say necessary evil, it to me means that like, "Sucks to do it, but at least it works [laughs]."

Amelia [00:30:09] Yeah.

Janine [00:30:10] What I'm hearing is that it also isn't working.

Amelia [00:30:12] It's an unnecessary evil [laughs].

Janine [00:30:14] It's an unnecessary evil?

Amelia [00:30:15] Yeah.

Janine [00:30:16] That seems like the exact opposite of what I want in my life [laughs and Amelia joins in].

Amelia [00:30:21] Yeah.

Janine [00:30:21] And so, I think that that's like the other piece of it too, right, is like it is choose your own adventure. There are so many options.

Amelia [00:30:30] Yeah.

Janine [00:30:30] And you really have, like, all of this freedom, which I think can be overwhelming. But even just to utilize one platform like Instagram, you could do it a million different ways. Like, it doesn't have to be about following the rules that you heard about, that they're changing, that you have to do reels now and it has to be edited inside of the platform and not in CapCut, because if you don't use their fonts, they hate it and they deprioritize it. Like, who cares?

Janine [00:31:01] I guarantee you it's not going to make or break your business, like those kinds of granular decisions. So, find a way that feels good to use it. What do you want that space to be like? Like, is it a gallery? Is it, like, a window display? Is it—

Amelia [00:31:18] Mm.

Janine [00:31:19] Like, a coffee shop? Is it a library? Like— because all of those things like have four walls and you exist completely differently, like, within them?

Amelia [00:31:29] Mmhm.

Janine [00:31:30] And I think that for retailers it is just, like, to the point about, like, traffic or, you know, discovery or any of that, it's like you just have to— is that even what your business needs right now? Is that the nourishment that your business needs right now? Or is there another form it can take?

Amelia [00:31:54] I love this question of like, what does your business need right now? And I think that so often with the people I talk to [chuckles softly], they're like, "My business needs money [chuckles softly again]. I need to make money. I would like revenue. I would like people to buy things."

Janine [00:32:11] Money, dinero, cash.

Amelia [00:32:14] Truly [laughs]. It's, like, how many ways can we say it.

Janine [00:32:15] An investor.

Amelia [00:32:17] Yeah [laughs]. A patron. But I think, like, what we're both seeing, there's like this breakdown between, like, what does your business really need? If what you need is revenue, you're probably not best suited by spending a ton of time making Instagram posts because it's too indirect. Like, what you're telling me or I'm hearing you saying is, like, the like social media traffic to purchasing journey is not direct enough if what you really need is money.

Amelia [00:32:42] One of the biggest problems, in my mind, with social media for small business owners is— so— it feels like social media is trying to always pop up and be like, "I'm the answer. I'm the answer. I'll solve your problem. I'll solve your problem." And, like, it rarely will do any of that. Like, rarely is what you need social media, like social media can be a— different sorts of tools for different things.

Amelia [00:33:03] Like, if you really want viral discovery, maybe TikTok is a tool that you want to use right now, or if you really want to extend the relationship with people who come in to your physical shop maybe Instagram is a great tool to like, you know, ask people to post a story and then they get something from you— actually even— this isn't retail, this is restaurants, but there's a brewery in Lincoln, where I live, that if you post the specific drink they have online, they'll give it to you for free, if you tag them in a story about it [laughs]— it's really cute—

Janine [00:33:35] I love that.

Amelia [00:33:35] But that's, like, part of the appeal. And so, I think it's knowing what your business needs and then finding the right tools for that rather than what you mentioned earlier like just doing the quote unquote, "shoulds," of social media or influencer partnerships or paid ads or, you know, things like that [sound blast transition].

Amelia [00:33:55] Speaking of, like, shoulds, I think both of us in our businesses share this desire to, like, remind people that they don't have to do anything. Or like you said before, like, you get to choose your own path. I'm always telling people like, "You have to market your business, but you can market it however you want [laughs heartily]."

Janine [00:34:10] Exactly. Exactly.

Amelia [00:34:13] I know many people are like, "I wish I never had to sell anything." And I'm like, "Well, you got to sell. But you can make choices— like sovereign choices about how you do that." So, for folks who are retailers or making physical products, like what are some creative non-social media marketing strategies that you might recommend to them or you think would be cool to try? Like, what can you do that's not social media and still supports your retail business?

Janine [00:34:40] I am a huge fan of collaborations. I think that there are so many amazing ways to collaborate with either locations or restaurants or other creators, if that's your thing— other product-based businesses that, like, allow you to sort of share the efforts that you've already made, you know, doing kind of, like, shared email promotions or a giveaway or a pop-up event or any of that where you can kind of, like, not only share your audience but also share some of the labor, which can feel really good, especially for my solo entrepreneurs out there who, like, wish they had a partner [laughs and Amelia joins in]. I think partnerships are a good—

Amelia [00:35:26] Yeah.

Janine [00:35:26] Way to try that, and not only because they're effective, but I also am always trying to think about, particularly for experiencing products and talking about products online. Thinking about the context that you're creating around them is really important because it can very easily become just like— or it feels like you're just constantly saying, "You can buy this. Do you want to buy this? Did you know I sell this?"

Amelia [00:35:55] Mmhm.

Janine [00:35:55] "I make this other thing," and it's like— that's not engaging content. If you're not someone who wants to do sales in the first place, it feels especially bad—

Amelia [00:36:02] Mmhm.

Janine [00:36:03] To be in that kind of, like, drone place. And I think that by collaborating with people or thinking about like, "Okay, how do I really want to talk about this collection," let's say coming out in the middle of the summer. Like, what was your inspiration for that? Like, how can you loop people in to kind of create a different experience I think is really effective and also really fun, which I think matters.

Amelia [00:36:31] Yeah, there's lots of content you can create around a product or a shop that you sell and that content is going to lend itself to it being shared on social media. But I think we can also— you know, we started by this conversation by saying like, "Retail existed before social media," and people did, like, IRL things [laughs] to promote their businesses, right?

Amelia [00:36:50] So, maybe you don't have an email list yet, but you can go leave 10% off cards at every local coffee shop in your area, or maybe you sell really cool water bottles and you can get them placed in every local yoga studio. Or maybe you are traveling up and down the coast this summer and as you do that, you can stop into a bunch of stores and, like, drop off product and, like, share that IRL with people.

Amelia [00:37:17] You know, I think there are lots of physical world ways to do creative marketing, and I think it is those— like, that's where we get to the relationships, the partnerships. We can take that digital again through kind of the example you used up, like, sharing email lists, you know, for instance [chuckles], what if Counter Magick, the cleaning products company was able to send an email to the list of all the people who've ever bought from Scrub Daddy.

Janine [00:37:41] From your mouth.

Amelia [00:37:42] To God's ears [laughs heartily].

Janine [00:37:42] To Scrub Daddy's ears [laughs].

Amelia [00:37:44] Right. Like, that's— that's, like, a big, you know, giant dream.

Janine [00:37:47] Sure. And, like, I'll take an example from a client that literally just happened— very high-quality, like, workwear for women and we're constantly getting questions about shoes. So, we're going to find a brand that aligns with our values and we're going to, like, swap audiences, you know, like, I think that's really effective.

Amelia [00:38:11] This actually takes us again to relationship marketing because that's what building in that work is in relationship marketing. And again, this is what Michelle and I talked about in her episode, the networking you're doing— when she talks about networking, it's not networking with clients or customers. It's networking with people who are going to refer you, people that you can—

Janine [00:38:31] Mm.

Amelia [00:38:32] Swap audiences with, people who have communities of the people you want to sell to. And I'm basically hearing you share the same strategy for retailers and product-based businesses. And that's where I think a lot of the magic happens. And you know what? Like, something I love that I see indie retailers doing is bringing in some service-based offerings to create recurring revenue.

Amelia [00:38:55] Like, I see a lot of shops launching monthly memberships or, like, recurring products, you know, like a subscription-based product, like you get a pair of socks every month or come join our— I especially see, like, magical shops kind of having, like, digital covens. And I think, you know, just because you're in retail, it doesn't mean you can't pull strategies from other types of businesses and that you can't build multiple revenue streams. And I think if you're listening to this podcast, you're a brilliant creative business babe, so you can do it. I believe in you. Steal all of our strategies [chuckles]—

Janine [00:39:28] Please. No gatekeeping, girlbossing—

Amelia [00:39:32] Or gaslighting [laughs].

Janine [00:39:33] Or gaslighting. None of the above. None of the above.

Janine [00:39:35] I forgot what the other G was [Amelia laughs]. Good job [Janine laughs] [sound blast transition].

Amelia [00:39:39] But I also see every retailer I know is still on social media and I watch the service-based business owners I know leaving. And so, I'm just still curious— are they still there because they need it or because it's working or because—

Janine [00:39:52] Mmm.

Amelia [00:39:53] They like it?

Janine [00:39:53] I don't think they like it [Amelia laughs heartily and Janine joins in]. That's not true. I know— I know some people do. But I do think that there has been a bit more proof that feels like more tangible for them whereas for service-based businesses, I think there was, like, this arise of, like, coaches, like, you know what I mean?

Amelia [00:40:19] Yeah.

Janine [00:40:20] Like—

Amelia [00:40:20] The influencer coach.

Janine [00:40:21] Correct. Coaches coaching coaches. And that definitely I feel like exploded and was like, "You can make, you know, seven figures a year, like, by doing X, Y, Z." And I think that was, like, a bubble that inflated and burst pretty fast. But for service-based businesses that are one-to-one, it's like your resources are so finite in terms of, like, your time or you expand your team or whatever. So yes, of course you can do a lot more with a fewer audience members.

Amelia [00:40:52] Mmhm.

Janine [00:40:52] I do think that retailers also need a lot more traffic. I mean, a good conversion rate for an e-commerce website is like 2%.

Amelia [00:41:01] Yeah.

Janine [00:41:02] Meaning if you have 100 visitors, two of them check out. So, if you think about how many transactions you need to make in a month, it's a lot of traffic—

Amelia [00:41:10] Yeah.

Janine [00:41:10] Especially online. Most of the businesses that I've been behind that are doing over $1,000,000 a year in sales get at least 25,000 visits a month.

Amelia [00:41:22] Yeah.

Janine [00:41:22] Just to give people like a really tactile stat.

Amelia [00:41:25] Yeah, that's helpful.

Janine [00:41:27] And that's a lot of people to drive.

Amelia [00:41:28] Yeah.

Janine [00:41:29] Especially if you're not doing any paid advertising [laughs]. And it's possible. 100%, it's possible. But again, I think that, like, you have to think about the experience and, like, what's actually working, not what you wish was working. Because I don't think that Instagram is the thing that's driving people to your website— that might be, like, Google searches, keywords about your product, recommendations from friends, press, influencers. Like, there's a whole host of things that can drive people to your website. And I think it's really critical that people get comfortable looking at where that traffic is coming from.

Janine [00:42:06] I know Google Analytics can be a scary and intimidating place, but it's really helpful at helping you conserve the resources, not only your money but your time and energy and creativity, too.

Amelia [00:42:21] Mmhm.

Janine [00:42:22] And again, I think that Instagram can still be a piece of that puzzle. But to your point, earlier around, you know, "Oh, I need to make more money. So, I'm just going to kind of throw spaghetti at the wall,” to summarize [laughs].

Amelia [00:42:39] Yeah [chuckles].

Janine [00:42:39] Which I— I mean, are you an entrepreneur if you've never been there [Amelia laughs heartily]? But I think that leading with a tool is not ever going to feel strategic to me. It's always going to feel reactive.

Amelia [00:42:54] Yeah.

Janine [00:42:54] And so, by saying, you know, "I need to make more sales." My first question is always going to be, “Okay, like which step of the sales process are you lacking in right now? Is it traffic? Is it your conversion rate? Or are people not spending enough?”

Amelia [00:43:09] Mm.

Janine [00:43:09] Your average order value—

Amelia [00:43:10] Mmhm.

Janine [00:43:10] For retailers, if you're getting a good amount of traffic and you notice your conversion rate is less than 2% online, I would say less than 30% in store, then you need to work on your conversion rate. It's actually not a traffic problem.

Amelia [00:43:25] Yeah.

Janine [00:43:26] And I think that's where product-based business owners— I know everyone who's listening who has a product-based business is already like, "I already do enough math [Amelia laughs]. I'm doing math all the time doing, like, COGS and you know, my inventory [chuckles], like all the supplies and all that stuff."

Janine [00:43:43] But it is a numbers business and you can make the prettiest product in the entire world, but if you don't know your numbers around like cost of product and also, like, that sales process where I think it's easier for service-based business owners in that regard too, because there's a lot more hand-holding. You're like, "Okay, this person put in an inquiry and then I talked to them and then they didn't purchase or they bought a smaller package than I thought or whatever."

Amelia [00:44:13] Mm.

Janine [00:44:13] It's, like, a little bit more visible.

Amelia [00:44:16] Mmhm. What I'm hearing you say is something like if you're getting a decent amount of traffic to your site, but people aren't buying, you need to work on conversion, which is probably going to be about your copy, about the web experience— maybe everybody hates that, like, they can't search for anything or they hate that you don't have categories or that you don't have a sale section like or maybe you're converting okay, but all of your orders are like under $25. So, maybe you need to figure out a way to have more recommendations to get them to put more things in cart or have a free shipping minimum to get people to bump up.

Janine [00:44:50] Right.

Speaker 2 [00:44:50] You need to know what your business needs to go back to that and you need to be able to identify what the actual problem is and social media is always going to tell you that your problem is you don't have enough followers or they're not engaged enough. And that is just very rarely the problem for any business. It's like— even if traffic is your problem, that's not a problem of how many followers you have. And so, there are so many ways to address that. And some of those might be on social media, but not all of them are, no matter what type of business you run.

Janine [00:45:21] Yeah, exactly. Your followers are not necessarily your customers.

Amelia [00:45:26] Yeah, it's so true.

Janine [00:45:27] It's much easier to press follow than it is to get up and get your wallet and check out and do all those things so— exactly. And it is their business— it is the social media company's business to convince you that that's the problem. And I think at their job they are very good [laughs softly].

Amelia [00:45:44] Oh, yeah [laughs heartily]. They have a very clear strategy for how to get us all to give them more money [laughs]—

Janine [00:45:52] And time. My life force [laughs].

Amelia [00:45:54] I know. Truly, truly, like, our life force, they are draining it out of us. [Takes a deep breath] Well, Janine, how can folks connect with you? Where can they find Feel Good Retail? Where can they buy Counter Magick? How can they stay in touch?

Janine [00:46:09] You can go to countermagick.com with a c-k. You can follow @feelgoodretail on Instagram [Amelia chuckles] at @feelgoodretail. I do check DMs and I pop into stories every once in a while and you can listen to Retail For The Rest Of Us—

Amelia [00:46:25] Yeah!

Janine [00:46:25] A Softer Sounds produced podcast.

Amelia [00:46:28] Yeah, such a good one. Well, thank you so much. I feel like since the title of this episode is, "Can Retail Leave Social Media?" [Laughs] I think our answer—

Janine [00:46:37] Sure!

Amelia [00:46:39] [Laughs heartily] Why not? Do what you want! I'm sure that's exactly the answer everybody wanted, but it is an answer in the vein of Off the Grid, which is that it can if you want it to, but if you want more support figuring that out, [outro music begins to play] check out all of Janine's content. She's definitely the one to go to, and I'm going to retreat back into service-based business owner land [laughs and Janine joins in]. Thanks, Janine. It was so great to have you.

Janine [00:47:03] Great to talk to you, Amelia. Thanks for having me.

Amelia [00:47:06] Yeah.

Amelia [00:47:08] Thanks for listening to Off the Grid. Find links and resources in the show notes and don't forget to grab your free Leaving Social Media Toolkit at softersounds.studio/byeig. That's softersounds dot studio slash b-y-e-i-g.

Amelia [00:47:24] This podcast is a Softer Sounds production. Our music is by Purple Planet and our logo is by n'atelier Studio.

Amelia [00:47:31] If you'd like to make a podcast of your own, we'd love to help. Find more about our services at softersounds.studio. Until next time, we'll see you Off the Grid [music fades out].